Hell + God = Nonsense

Originally posted by serigado
You're a spiritual encyclopedia. You surely know your subject.

This thing of redemption in Hell is quite an important topic, in my opinion. But by the way, wasn't Hell a made up story from the middle age? (Dante's hell, at least).
I think the Bible is nothing specific about many subjects allied to the amount of information that has been lost during tim ...[text shortened]... ology: Fear of Hell.

Loving God + Eternal Hell doesn't make any sense! That's my opinion

What about a God who deals with justice and personal responsibility?
Could you see a God like that holding people and spiritual beings
accountable for their actions?
Kelly

Originally posted by whodey
Hell is merely seperation from God. So why is being seperated from him equivalent to suffering? If he is the source of all life/love, what quality of life do you have? In fact, what life do you have?

It is akin to you wanting something from me that I possess. To get it, you must go through me first. Otherwise, you are on your own. This is how I see t ...[text shortened]... attempts to force another to love them it drives them away. It is simply a natural reaction.

From what you describe, I'd say WE are in Hell. Separated from God, on our own, free to do whatever we want. I like it here. I wouldn't change this for eternal Heaven (with the present understanding I have of Heaven, now).

Now in terms of love, what good is life without it? In fact, how can their be love in the first place if there is no choice to love? Can you make someone love you? It is my observation that if one attempts to force another to love them it drives them away. It is simply a natural reaction.
You told you there's no love in Hell? Love comes from ourselves, or are you saying Love is only possible if you submit to God? If so, we are speaking of two different kinds of love. Love is very abstract and I bet no one can define what it is, I guess. But I'm capable of love without God. If I have free will, I will always be able to love.
God doesn't need us, we don't need God. I prefer to keep my free will then to go to heaven by submitting only to be eternally submitted.

Originally posted by KellyJay
What about a God who deals with justice and personal responsibility?
Could you see a God like that holding people and spiritual beings
accountable for their actions?
Kelly

The point is God's eternal punishment being unfair and ultra-exaggerated. The alternative is submission to an entity I don't agree. Is that the world we live on?
The more I dig about Christianity the more I want to get away from it. A few days ago I thought it was all good and joy, that the only draw back was betray my beliefs in rationalism. But there's a lot more to it. I don't want to go either to Hell or Heaven. And I think God is an egocentric and unjust dictator.

Originally posted by serigado
The point is God's eternal punishment being unfair and ultra-exaggerated. The alternative is submission to an entity I don't agree. Is that the world we live on?
The more I dig about Christianity the more I want to get away from it. A few days ago I thought it was all good and joy, that the only draw back was betray my beliefs in rationalism. But there's a ...[text shortened]... t want to go either to Hell or Heaven. And I think God is an egocentric and unjust dictator.

What is unfair, you sin you pay for your sins, simple.
You want to blame another for holding you accountable, it is the way
of man, cast off the blame to another, find the loop hole to make
ones self justified no matter what!
Kelly

Originally posted by serigado
You see the fault in reasoning my admitting by definition that God is the ultimate Good? It's like changing the referential to something else. If it's like we say, we are nothing more then stray sheeps, who's purpose is prove ourselves worthy of God and return to his perfect realm.

You believe, if i understood correctly that anything that differs from Go ...[text shortened]... on and free will do to what YOU think is right. Your God wouldn't allow so. Pity.

If it's like we say, we are nothing more then stray sheeps, who's purpose is prove ourselves worthy of God and return to his perfect realm.

No one is worthy of God. The Holy Spirit convicts a person's heart of sin and gives whoever chooses to repent the power to submit to God. Our personal will is involved in the process, though only in an actively passive way. Faith is essentially active passivity, wherein one allows the power of God to move freely in one's heart and life.

You believe, if i understood correctly that anything that differs from God must have some degree of evil. I don't know how you inferred this, but I totally disagree.

God's will is that which is our highest good. Within the bounds of His will there is infinite room for variability, individuality, creativity and leisure. For instance, it is God's will that you should not murder another human being. Avoiding killing another human being is in your best interest, is it not? Are you able to obey this commandment and yet choose what you will wear today, what music you will listen to, and what TV show you will watch tonight? How about God's command to love Him with all your heart, mind, soul and body, and your neighbor as yourself? This command is impossible to fulfill without the help of the Holy Spirit, but nevertheless, it is not a command which robs you of your individuality or creativity; after all, individual creativity can be employed in loving others as well as loving God. And at the end of the day, nothing in God's will is stopping you from watching the Office, either.

Originally posted by KellyJay
What is unfair, you sin you pay for your sins, simple.
You want to blame another for holding you accountable, it is the way
of man, cast off the blame to another, find the loop hole to make
ones self justified no matter what!
Kelly

No sin justifies eternal damnation. I'm not trying to run away from my responsibilities nor cast off blames.
Now when someone says "if you're not baptized, you go to Hell", "if you don't submit to God, you go to Hell", etc, that sounds unfair to me. If you are ok with, I guess we simply have different perspectives of what justice is.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]If it's like we say, we are nothing more then stray sheeps, who's purpose is prove ourselves worthy of God and return to his perfect realm.

No one is worthy of God. The Holy Spirit convicts a person's heart of sin and gives whoever chooses to repent the power to submit to God. Our personal will is involved in the process, though only in an ac ...[text shortened]... end of the day, nothing in God's will is stopping you from watching the Office, either.[/b]

Yes, you gave 2 examples which are quite consensual.
It's the dubious ones I have some difficulty swallowing.

If there's no sin whatsoever in Heaven , it means souls don't have the free will do to them, even if they would be punished for doing so. When you get to even you don't have more opportunity to sin? I find this incoherent.

Originally posted by serigado
From what you describe, I'd say WE are in Hell. Separated from God, on our own, free to do whatever we want. I like it here. I wouldn't change this for eternal Heaven (with the present understanding I have of Heaven, now).

[b]Now in terms of love, what good is life without it? In fact, how can their be love in the first place if there is no choice to lo ...[text shortened]... er to keep my free will then to go to heaven by submitting only to be eternally submitted.

Our lives are a continuation of God's creation of mankind via Adam. However, we are dying as did Adam. Once this occurs we no longer have the life that God once gave us unless we are able to live after our physical bodies die. Thankfully, God has made a way for this to happen!

I do not deny that we have the capacity for love and I do not deny that we are currently living. However, to ignore the source of this love/life is fool hearty. To say that love comes from ourselves is like saying that our life comes from ourselves. However, one thing is certain. If life comes from ourselves we will all surely die. We have no power to sustain life nor preserve it for very long even though we may believe we are the source of such life.

As far as the definition for love, Paul did a good job in defining it in 1 Corinthians chapter 13. Look it up, it is a good read. However, if you are unable to look it up I can provide you with it if you like.

Originally posted by serigado
Yes, you gave 2 examples which are quite consensual.
It's the dubious ones I have some difficulty swallowing.

If there's no sin whatsoever in Heaven , it means souls don't have the free will do to them, even if they would be punished for doing so. When you get to even you don't have more opportunity to sin? I find this incoherent.

Yes, you gave 2 examples which are quite consensual.
It's the dubious ones I have some difficulty swallowing.

Christ said every law of God and every demand of God's prophets are based on these two commandments: "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind... [and] Love your neighbor as yourself" (Matt. 22:37, 39).

If there's no sin whatsoever in Heaven , it means souls don't have the free will do to them, even if they would be punished for doing so. When you get to even you don't have more opportunity to sin? I find this incoherent.

God gives the believer's soul and spirit a new incorruptible body in which to dwell in heaven, while the old corruptible body passes away. The old body was condemned, because of sin, to death (by "corruptible" that means it was susceptible to decay, death and rot). Not only was it susceptible to decay, death and rot, but the power of sin operated in its members (Rom. 7:20) actively tempting a person to sin and persistently bringing that person into captivity.

But Christ destroyed the power of sin and death by His sacrifice on the cross, and delivered forever all those who believe in Him from both death and the power of sin. Therefore, all those in heaven, though rational and free creatures, are utterly free from the power of sin because of Christ's work on the cross. That is, they are free from pride.

EDIT: The problem is, you see the ability to act contrary to the will of God to be man's highest good. But it isn't. God's will is man's highest good. I would much rather be in heaven and be unable to sin, than be on earth and be constantly tempted. Sin is death, and the ability to sin is therefore wrought with danger. Why would I consider such an ability to be desirable? Heaven would not be heaven if sin were present there.

Originally posted by whodey
Our lives are a continuation of God's creation of mankind via Adam. However, we are dying as did Adam. Once this occurs we no longer have the life that God once gave us unless we are able to live after our physical bodies die. Thankfully, God has made a way for this to happen!

I do not deny that we have the capacity for love and I do not deny that we ar ...[text shortened]... s a good read. However, if you are unable to look it up I can provide you with it if you like.

Dying is inherent to living. I learned this lesson a long time ago. I'm not afraid to die or to cease to exist. I think this philosophy isn't included in most people and that's why they turn to religion, but this is another subject.

To say that love comes from ourselves is like saying that our life comes from ourselves
No. It's not comparable. Love comes from ourselves, Life comes from our parents.

If life comes from ourselves we will all surely die
Of course we will. Are you afraid? Someday science will circumvent this, unfortunately it will take some millennia more.


As far as the definition for love, Paul did a good job in defining it in 1 Corinthians chapter 13. Look it up, it is a good read. However, if you are unable to look it up I can provide you with it if you like.
I can't understand half of the translations in English of the Bible. It looks like Shakespeare wrote it. But I found this
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13
As I said somewhere else, I can identify myself with most of the philosophy of the Bible. But there are too many inconsistencies there. Imagine God would isolate himself from our Universe, leaving us completely alone. Do you believe Love would disappear? Do you believe anything would be any different during our lifetime?

God gives the believer's soul and spirit a new incorruptible body in which to dwell in heaven, while the old corruptible body passes away. The old body was condemned, because of sin, to death (by "corruptible" that means it was susceptible to decay, death and rot). Not only was it susceptible to decay, death and rot, but the power of sin operated in its members (Rom. 7:20) actively tempting ...[text shortened]... the power of sin because of Christ's work on the cross. That is, they are free from pride.

That means our mind will be completely altered, and everything we understand as needs, desires and will, will also be profoundly altered. All this doesn't make sense!!!
I don't understand how Christians don't think on the possibility that some things in the Bible were just MADE UP, written to gather more believers. All things added simply don't make sense, unless one is willing to ignore a lot of stuff (I'm not even talking in the contradictions with science, those are too obvious).
You built a model that suits your needs of afterlife and to have something that is absolute. But it doesn't make sense! Tell me more evidence besides the Bible. Show me something to change my mind.

Originally posted by whodey
And that is the key. You continue to help, support, comfort and care for them in any way that the circomstances ALLOW. Thus the era of grace was introduced, however, it is fleeting.....

Of course, honesty compelled me to put it that way. 🙂

Equally, of course, the question arises as to what is the difference between circumstances that may allow me to act, and circumstances that may allow God to act.

Your statement that the era of grace is “fleeting” sounds an awful lot like my statement about a statute of limitations on love . . . Who sets such a statute of limitations, and why?

Originally posted by serigado
That means our mind will be completely altered, and everything we understand as needs, desires and will, will also be profoundly altered. All this doesn't make sense!!!
I don't understand how Christians don't think on the possibility that some things in the Bible were just MADE UP, written to gather more believers. All things added simply don't make sense, make sense! Tell me more evidence besides the Bible. Show me something to change my mind.

That means our mind will be completely altered, and everything we understand as needs, desires and will, will also be profoundly altered.

That's the whole point, seri. 🙂

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17).

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God" (Romans 12:2).

You built a model that suits your needs of afterlife and to have something that is absolute. But it doesn't make sense! Tell me more evidence besides the Bible. Show me something to change my mind.

I'm sorry, I don't have any evidence besides the Bible, except the evidence of regeneration in my own life. I was converted on the evidence of the words of Christ - I trusted Christ to be Who He said He was. Since that day I have grown in blessings and in grace, overcoming habitual sins and anxieties in order to live boldly for the Lord. As I've described to vistesd before, I know of no campaign of self-delusion in my life of faith; far from it. My life is marked by joy, peace, love, confidence in the Lord's power, and submission to His authority. I know the Spirit of the Lord intimately and would die for Christ were that the Lord's will. This life is far superior to that which I lived in my own power, following the desires of my flesh.

I know it's difficult to understand, but that is not evidence of its falsity. I don't understand quantum physics either, but it works. I wish I could help you understand better, but understanding is not what is required to be saved. Only trust is required. Christ will satisfy your curiosity if you will trust in Him, and learn from Him.

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent"" (1 Corinthians 1:18-19).

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EDIT: There is no doubt that the Gospel of Christ will be unsatisfying to your intellect. In a way, it is meant to be so, since it is the counteracting of the effects of The Tree of Knowledge. That's why God doesn't require some type of intellectual enlightenment for salvation, but trust instead.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]That means our mind will be completely altered, and everything we understand as needs, desires and will, will also be profoundly altered.

That's the whole point, seri. 🙂

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17).

"And do not be conforme ...[text shortened]... ire some type of intellectual enlightenment for salvation, but trust instead.[/b]

Let me ask you a question, Epi. It’s not in any way intended as an accusatory, or even argumentative, question.

I think your theology is messed up—not from any Zen Buddhist viewpoint, but from the viewpoint of my former (Protestant) Christianity, and my later studies in Orthodoxy and the early church tradition. We’ve debated enough now that you ought to have seen enough pieces of that fabric to know where I’m coming from.

What if your theology is messed up (including elements of your soteriology; we’ve never really discussed Christology much): does that matter, from a salvific point of view? As you understand it?

Originally posted by vistesd
Let me ask you a question, Epi. It’s not in any way intended as an accusatory, or even argumentative, question.

I think your theology is messed up—not from any Zen Buddhist viewpoint, but from the viewpoint of my former (Protestant) Christianity, and my later studies in Orthodoxy and the early church tradition. We’ve debated enough now that you ought to ...[text shortened]... ssed Christology much): does that matter, from a salvific point of view? As you understand it?

Well, it would make a difference if the Christ which I believed in were not the real Christ. For instance, if I believed Christ were Satan's spiritual brother, as the Mormons believe, or that Christ were an angel rather than God, as the Jehovah's Witnesses believe. But as long as that is in place, there is some wiggle room with regards to various inessentials to faith, e.g., beliefs about premillenialism, the necessity of baptism, gifts of the Spirit, or the like. I admit that my exegesis is far from complete. What about my Christology is messed up, in your opinion?