Originally posted by Kakistocratno it doesnt exist... it is a state of mind, depression, fear, anger, revenge... all forms of hell, but a physical place.... no.... i mean, come on, think about it, hell to an evil man would be heaven... we all belong to one source and we all return to that source, we have to, otherwise it would be incomplete and no longer whole...
Do you believe it exists?
Is eternal?
How do you get there?
Some of these issues are explored at http://kakistocrat.blogsome.com/
Discussion is welcome (there preferrably)...
I think that there is a hell, and that a lot of people will go there.
There are multiple references in scripture to hell, the only one that I can think of off-hand is the mention of it in Luke 16:23 about a rich man who went to hell. In that reference, the rich man is begging Abraham for water, although the request cannot be granted, due to the chasm placed between heavan and hell.
Now, this account to me does not sound like a state of mind of depression, anger, and so on. It sounds like a fairly real place in which there is very little, if any, water.
Although I cannot think of the passage off the top of my head, I know that the Bible also describes hell as having a 'lake of fire'. If there were such a place, it would be very hot and very dry.
Hell is also described as the home place for Satan and his demonic angels. Again, I cannot think of the scripture reference off the top of my head. That brings the Bible to stating that Hell is a real place that is very hot and very dry and is crawling with demons.
Are you getting the picture here? If the Bible is right, and there is such a hell, then everybody doomed to it has a miserable eternity in front of them!
The Old Testament of the Bible tells of Jewish people making annual trips to the temple to sacrifice cattle to pardon their sins. Why would sins have to be pardoned if you were going to heaven anyway? If your sins don't make a difference, why go to all the trouble sacrificing? The Bible states God as being the creator of the universe, (Genesis chapter 1 and 2) so the God of the Bible is a God of order and logic. Slaying cattle in beautifully designed buildings without a purpose isn't very orderly or logical.
The Jews sacrificing their cattle as an offering before God was a symbol of how God's son was sacrificed on the cross for mankind. Except that when God's son was sacrificed, he paid the debt for ALL of man's sin. Here's the catch: God's son wants you to ask him first before he will grant you forgiveness. See, even though he paid the debt, he still wants you to ask him for the gift. Hey, would you die for someone who would never ever talk to you and thank you? That's how he feels.
Now, if you are reading this, you probably know what is coming next. The Bible tells us that God's son is Jesus, and that all you have to do is ask him to forgive you and you will go to heaven instead of hell because all your sins are forgiven. It doesn't matter where you are, God is omnipitent (he's everywhere at once) and can hear you ask anywhare.
That's where I stand on this topic.
Originally posted by mjgoodDo you think Benny Hinn deserves to go to hell?
I think that there is a hell, and that a lot of people will go there.
There are multiple references in scripture to hell, the only one that I can think of off-hand is the mention of it in Luke 16:23 about a rich man who went to hell. In that reference, the rich man is begging Abraham for water, although the request cannot be granted, due to the chasm plac ...[text shortened]... ere at once) and can hear you ask anywhare.
That's where I stand on this topic.
Originally posted by mjgoodMind control doesn\'t work on me. Sorry.
I think that there is a hell, and that a lot of people will go there.
There are multiple references in scripture to hell, the only one that I can think of off-hand is the mention of it in Luke 16:23 about a rich man who went to hell. In that reference, the rich man is begging Abraham for water, although the request cannot be granted, due to the chasm plac ...[text shortened]... d can hear you ask anywhare.
That\'s where I stand on this topic.
Don\'t you xian fundies ever get tired of this same old theology?
- It\'s not a \'gift\' if it must be accepted on pain of eternal torture.
- It doesn\'t make sense to stake someone\'s eternal soul on the asking of one silly question.
- It\'s not impressive that Jesus \'died\' for us when he knew full well he\'d be alive again in 3 days.
- It\'s not altruistic to suffer for someone if you\'re going to torture them for not paying homage to your sacrifice.
You said, \"I think that there is a hell, and that a lot of people will go there.\" This shows that you worship a morbid, twisted, and sick god, if this is the fore-known result of his design and creation of human beings.
Originally posted by SwissGambitOkay lets go waywayway back here...
Mind control doesn\'t work on me. Sorry.
Don\'t you xian fundies ever get tired of this same old theology?
- It\'s not a \'gift\' if it must be accepted on pain of eternal torture.
- It doesn\'t make sense to stake someone\'s eternal soul on the asking of one silly question.
- It\'s not impressive that Jesus \'died\' for us when he knew full well h ...[text shortened]... the fore-known result of his design and creation of human beings.
God never intended for anyone to go to hell. Originally, he created us perfect, and he created the world perfect. Again, look at the beginning of Genesis as God says that the world was created 'Good'. In the very beginning, God actually walked with man and held conversations with him. God gave them knowledge of only good, and gave them only one rule, and that was that they could not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.
The two humans on earth at the time were doing fine with this, until God's enemy, Satan, took on the form of a serpant and appeared to the woman. Satan persuaded the woman that if she ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, that she would have knowledge like God. The woman thought that this made sense, broke the rule, and ate the fruit. Chomp chomp, sin. She then told the man on earth at the time that this fruit really did give her more knowledge, and since there was only one female on earth at the time and he really didn't want to get on her bad side, the man ate the fruit also.
This fruit gave all humans the knowledge of Evil. So now they could do things for good intentions or for evil intentions.
This is where God, as you say, becomes a 'morbid, twisted, sick god'. God is perfect, and he expected perfectness from humans from the beginning. If anybody ever sinned, they weren't perfect as far as God was concerned. However, even though no human could ever measure up to God's standard again, he loved us enough to make it possible for us to still be in heaven with him instead of in hell where we will be tormented by demons and be dry and thirsty all the time.
I think that it's very generous of God to provide an alternative to hell.
Also, Jesus died to prove to us that he was God's son, not because he knew that he would rise again in three days.
Take it or leave it, God sent his son to earth to die for our sins and to rise again on the third day to prove it.
If what you say is true, and if God is sick and twisted, then either we are all doomed to hell, or we are all going to heaven, or we come back to earth as some other life form, or whatever.
BUT...
If the Bible is right, and the only way to escape hell is by believing in Jesus and going to heaven, then those who believe that will go to heaven.
Either way, I win or break even. For you, you will either break even or lose. The Bible says that both heaven and hell are for eternity.
Originally posted by mjgoodDO you really believe all that crap as having truly happened? It only makes sense as a metaphor.... That's how you should read the bible. Or else no one will give credit to your saying... only stupid non educated or desperate people believe that.
Okay lets go waywayway back here...
God never intended for anyone to go to hell. Originally, he created us perfect, and he created the world perfect. Again, look at the beginning of Genesis as God says that the world was created 'Good'. In the very beginning, God actually walked with man and held conversations with him. God gave them knowledge of only good either break even or lose. The Bible says that both heaven and hell are for eternity.
The bible has a beautiful meaning... don't take everything it says as an absolut truth. It makes you look stupid.
Originally posted by mjgood
Okay lets go waywayway back here...
God never intended for anyone to go to hell. Originally, he created us perfect, and he created the world perfect. Again, look at the beginning of Genesis as God says that the world was created \'Good\'. In the very beginning, God actually walked with man and held conversations with him. God gave them knowledge of only go ...[text shortened]... eak even or lose. The Bible says that both heaven and hell are for eternity.
God never intended for anyone to go to hell.If your god is omniscient and omnipotent, he knew before creation that many humans would go to hell, he had the power to create the world in a different way that resulted in fewer, or even no people going to hell, yet he chose to make the world as he did. So, yes, he intended for people to go to hell.
I think that it\'s very generous of God to provide an alternative to hell.Hell is an unjust punishment. It should not be an alternative at all.
Also, Jesus died to prove to us that he was God\'s son, not because he knew that he would rise again in three days.My point is that it\'s not so impressive to sacrifice your \'life\' for someone, when you know you\'ll alive again in 3 days. If a mere mortal gives his life for someone, he can\'t get it back. That\'s true altruism.
If what you say is true, and if God is sick and twisted, then either we are all doomed to hell, or we are all going to heaven, or we come back to earth as some other life form, or whatever.That\'s not quite what I say, though. The god you worship is sick and twisted; however, I don\'t believe he exists. Pretend I\'m talking about a fictional movie villain when I speak of your god.
Either way, I win or break even. For you, you will either break even or lose. The Bible says that both heaven and hell are for eternity.This is a form of Pascal\'s Wager, which is easily refuted. For starters, it\'s a false dichotomy. There are more than 2 choices of religion. It\'s quite possible that the true faith is one that neither you nor I follow, and that we\'ll both be screwed at the end.
More serious than the theory of hells existence, I believe, is the damnation of all such people to it by those who feel that they are in the right.
Hell's existence is theoretical in nature. The implications of it can (though not always) lead to great abuse.
http://kakistocrat.blogsome.com/
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Hell is also described as the home place for Satan and his demonic angels.
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Maybe in Milton's Paradise Lost. But not in the Bible. Maybe in Dante's Inferno (The Divine Comedy) but not in the Bible.
Look Hell is the same as Hades. It means the place of the dead. That is ALL the dead - saved or unsaved.
Hell is the realm of the dead and departed immaterial part of man.
What has Hell become to be associated with ? In the modern vanacular Hell has come to mean eternal perdition.
However, it would not be unbiblical to say that when we die we ALL go to Hell or Hades. That would be correct according to the Bible's usage of the word.
The real correct word for eternal perdition should be "the lake of fire". But people are probably going to continue to think of Hell or Hades to be that place of eternal punishment.
In Luke apparently Hell or Hades is divided into a pleasant section for those who had faith in God and an unpleasent section or torment. Both were in Hell or Hades.
The pleasant section of Hell or Hades was called "Abraham's bosom ".
Any thought of Satan being the ruler who reigns over everything in Hell is a false concept. He does not reign in Hell.
The idea of demons coming from Hell is probably due to the book of Revelation which shows demonic beings coming up out of the Abyss. But that is either deeper than Hell or is not the same place as Hell.
I actually believe that there is some place underneath the surface of the earth where the souls of the departed human beings are in Hades or Hell. Don't try to excavate your way to it with drills. It is probably far beyond man's reach. And it has a spiritual dimension to it.
After long consideration and much study, I decided that it must be true that Hell is real.
Okay, I wil go over this again for the "literalists" out there. In the old testament, were the word hell appears, its translation is sheol, meaning death or the grave(interchangable word). In the new testament the world is translated as either Hades(greek place where all the dead reside), or Geahenna(sic) which was a garbage heap outside of Jerusalam. In Revelations, the lake of fire needs to be taken in context. God as an all consuming fire is a recuuring theme (burning bush etc...) where souls are consumed then extinguished. There is no hell of eternal punishment There is spiritual life with God, or this spiritual death. The idea of a punishing hell is primarily a Christian concept, and not broadly excepted by Jews, who are the origanators of our faith
Originally posted by mjgoodand what a stance it is...
I think that there is a hell, and that a lot of people will go there.
There are multiple references in scripture to hell, the only one that I can think of off-hand is the mention of it in Luke 16:23 about a rich man who went to hell. In that reference, the rich man is begging Abraham for water, although the request cannot be granted, due to the chasm plac ...[text shortened]... ere at once) and can hear you ask anywhare.
That's where I stand on this topic.
on religion...
I don't believe anything unless it can be backed up with scripture...
as a christian, the problem is in proving the existence of hell to one who thinks the Bible is a load of trash. obviously, if someone believed in hell, they wouldn't want to go there...
but if they don't believe in the bible, which offers the only proof of its existence, how can they ever believe there is a hell...
so, asking someone if they believe in hell is only a condensed way of asking them if they believe in the bible and it's omnipotent teachings, which i do
Originally posted by serigadono, the importance is that we continue to believe the Word no matter what the world tells us. that is the test of our Faith. at some point in all of our lives, we come across someone who will try to tell us that the Bible is bull because it has no cold hard factual background...
DO you really believe all that crap as having truly happened? It only makes sense as a metaphor.... That's how you should read the bible. Or else no one will give credit to your saying... only stupid non educated or desperate people believe that.
The bible has a beautiful meaning... don't take everything it says as an absolut truth. It makes you look stupid.
the fact is, it really doesn't have any cold hard fact background...
I, personally, believe because my heart has led me to believe.
Jesus himself told his Disciples that they were good for believing in Him because they had seen and wittnessed him. He then told them that blessed were those who believed having seen nothing at all.
that, my friend, is where my faith is right now, and I have no doubt in my mind that one day, I will rejoice at his feet in Heaven.
Originally posted by SwissGambitno, he never intended for this to happen...[b]God never intended for anyone to go to hell.If your god is omniscient and omnipotent, he knew before creation that many humans would go to hell, he had the power to create the world in a different way that resulted in fewer, or even no people going to hell, yet he chose to make the world as he did. So, yes, he intended for people to go to hell.
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Free will took hold
if God had had it his way, we wouldn't be arguing over this right now, because we would all agree on everything about God.
but that's the thing, he gave us free will, which allows you to not believe in Him.
if it weren't for free will, we would all be, pardon the phrase, zombies and we would all do the same thing for eternity...
but he gave us free will because He wanted us to CHOOSE to love him.