Hell

Originally posted by rubberjaw30
no, he never intended for this to happen...
Free will took hold
if God had had it his way, we wouldn\'t be arguing over this right now, because we would all agree on everything about God.
but that\'s the thing, he gave us free will, which allows you to not believe in Him.
if it weren\'t for free will, we would all be, pardon the phrase, zombies and w ...[text shortened]... hing for eternity...
but he gave us free will because He wanted us to CHOOSE to love him.

You haven\'t thought this through.

As long as there exists an omniscient, omnipotent being, then nothing outside of his will can happen. He sees the future, and has the power to stop any undesired action.

You think your God doesn\'t want zombies? Wrong again. After the final judgment of revelation, the heaven-bound will be given \'new bodies\' and they will be incapable of ever sinning again. They will worship God for eternity. Too bad for the rest of the poor hell-fried saps that God couldn\'t just start everyone out with those spiffy \'new bodies\'.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
You haven\'t thought this through.

As long as there exists an [b]omniscient, omnipotent being, then nothing outside of his will can happen. He sees the future, and has the power to stop any undesired action.

You think your God doesn\'t want zombies? Wrong again. After the final judgment of revelation, the heaven-bound will be given \'new ...[text shortened]... saps that God couldn\'t just start everyone out with those spiffy \'new bodies\'.[/b]

yes, i did think this through, and i previously mentioned the argument to your statement...
He WANTS us to CHOOSE to love him
yes, He could make people not sin, but that's not what He ultimately wants. He wants us to accept that Hell is the consequence of our sin and that loving Him is the only way out...

Originally posted by SwissGambit
You haven\'t thought this through.

As long as there exists an [b]omniscient, omnipotent being, then nothing outside of his will can happen. He sees the future, and has the power to stop any undesired action.

You think your God doesn\'t want zombies? Wrong again. After the final judgment of revelation, the heaven-bound will be given \'new ...[text shortened]... saps that God couldn\'t just start everyone out with those spiffy \'new bodies\'.[/b]

and again...
those after the Second Coming won't be zombies because of His forcing...
those around after the Second Coming will be those who chose to love Him, and will continue to worship Him willingly for all eternity

Originally posted by rubberjaw30
yes, i did think this through, and i previously mentioned the argument to your statement...
He WANTS us to CHOOSE to love him
yes, He could make people not sin, but that\'s not what He ultimately wants. He wants us to accept that Hell is the consequence of our sin and that loving Him is the only way out...

But I just showed you that sinless people is what God ultimately wants. Nobody sins in heaven! [Please, read this over and over again until it sinks in.]

Originally posted by rubberjaw30
and again...
those after the Second Coming won\'t be zombies because of His forcing...
those around after the Second Coming will be those who chose to love Him, and will continue to worship Him willingly for all eternity

You just defeated your own argument.

You admit that people in heaven have free will, yet do not sin. Therefore, God could have created only people like them.

Originally posted by duecer
Okay, I wil go over this again for the "literalists" out there. In the old testament, were the word hell appears, its translation is sheol, meaning death or the grave(interchangable word). In the new testament the world is translated as either Hades(greek place where all the dead reside), or Geahenna(sic) which was a garbage heap outside of Jerusalam. In Reve ...[text shortened]... ly a Christian concept, and not broadly excepted by Jews, who are the origanators of our faith

Duecer,

Okay for the literalists out there ...?

I think you start out pretty well. But then you verge into the prefered interpretations of Universalists or those who cannot bring themselves to believe in eternal punishment.

So you talk about extinguishing to soften the admittedly terrible prospect of eternal suffering.

It won't work with some of us. Even if I PREFERED to believed that and even LIKED to believe that ... I cannot.

But I'll tell you .. I get weary of turning every spiritual discussion into a talk about damnation when there is too much else which is gloriously important about the Person of Christ. I barely have enough time to speak of the unsearchable riches of the One Who saves man from such a destiny to another. So I probably will not engage you in a long drawn out debate.

But for the record, I liked the initial part of your clarification. But I caught the Universalist drift.

I did not like at all your reference to the burning bush which I think has not so much to do with a symbol of punishment. Rather God seen in the burning bush prefigures the uniting of His holy divinity with the human nature of created man. It points to the incarnation of Christ - the God-man.

It also reminded Moses that he as a servant of God would move and act by the power of the inextinguishable God. Moses very much needed that for the upcoming 40 plus years of leading Israel out of Egypt and into the Good Land.

Deucer,

I owe you a little bit more.

I wrote:

++++++++++++++++++++++++
But for the record, I liked the initial part of your clarification. But I caught the Universalist drift.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The problem is that even though it is true that any corpse thrown into the city dump of Gehenna would literally be consumed .. HOW did Jesus use the symbol of Gehenna?

He undoubtably used Gehenna to teach that His Father had the authority to perpetually punish beyond the realm of physical death. That is how Jesus used the symbology of Gehenna.

What it boils down to is whether one will accept or not what Jesus Christ was conveying. And it was from His mouth mostly that we have New Testament concepts about eternal punishment. The subject of eternal punishment is mostly due to the things which Jesus said.

Everybody eventually being saved, including the Devil or eternal torment not being possible are the concept of the Universalist whose mortal sense of decency is offended by the thought of God punishing forever.

I don't think there is any way around accepting that eternal perdition is a teaching of the Bible. But there is a way out. That is Jesus Christ. And if there is another way out, that also is Jesus Christ.

Jesus'

Originally posted by rubberjaw30
no, the importance is that we continue to believe the Word no matter what the world tells us. that is the test of our Faith. at some point in all of our lives, we come across someone who will try to tell us that the Bible is bull because it has no cold hard factual background...
the fact is, it really doesn't have any cold hard fact background...
I, pe ...[text shortened]... s right now, and I have no doubt in my mind that one day, I will rejoice at his feet in Heaven.

Well, i admit... this has been made bullet proof. "if someone with intelligence comes to put the Bible at stake, burn him as a witch, you face it as a test of Faith".
BUt you got to the point I wanted. Religion is nothing but a state of mind, where you alienate from reality to believe something that's a lot better. Backed up by a book that MUST be true and a huge lobby, it makes the perfect mind control instrument for those in power and the perfect way for weaklings to face a harsh world.
Keep your faith and beliefs if it makes you happy. Either way when you die you won't care if god exists or not.

Originally posted by jaywill
Deucer,

I owe you a little bit more.

I wrote:

[b]++++++++++++++++++++++++
But for the record, I liked the initial part of your clarification. But I caught the Universalist drift.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The problem is that even though it is true that any corpse thrown into the city dump of Gehenna would literally be consumed ...[text shortened]... is a way out. That is Jesus Christ. And if there is another way out, that also is Jesus Christ.[/b]

I would disagree with your interpretation of the use of a garbage heap. Given the Old Testament, and New Testamnet imagery, the connotation is one of spiritual death. We either accept that Christ is Lord or our souls are extinguished, and we suffer spiritual death.

I would ask you this question, Would God allow your grandmother to suffer in a burning fiery pit for all eternity, for what amounts to a handful of mistakes over 75-80 years? The punishmnet does not fit the crime. I serve a just God, and I don't believe that God would do that.

Originally posted by duecer
I would disagree with your interpretation of the use of a garbage heap. Given the Old Testament, and New Testamnet imagery, the connotation is one of spiritual death. We either accept that Christ is Lord or our souls are extinguished, and we suffer spiritual death.

I would ask you this question, Would God allow your grandmother to suffer in a burning fie ...[text shortened]... ishmnet does not fit the crime. I serve a just God, and I don't believe that God would do that.

I think I owe you just a smidge more as well

The Weslyan quadrilateral states:the living core of the Christian faith was revealed in Scripture, illumined by tradition, vivified in personal experience, and confirmed by reason.

Experience and reason lead me to believe what I have already stated.

Here is a brain teaser for everyone. Who, if anyone, deserves a fate of eternal damnation?

Deucer,

++++++++++++++++++++++++
I would ask you this question, Would God allow your grandmother to suffer in a burning fiery pit for all eternity, for what amounts to a handful of mistakes over 75-80 years? The punishmnet does not fit the crime. I serve a just God, and I don't believe that God would do that.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Is this question based on some certain knowledge you have that your grandparents were not believers in Jesus?

Originally posted by jaywill
Deucer,

[b]++++++++++++++++++++++++
I would ask you this question, Would God allow your grandmother to suffer in a burning fiery pit for all eternity, for what amounts to a handful of mistakes over 75-80 years? The punishmnet does not fit the crime. I serve a just God, and I don't believe that God would do that.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++


...[text shortened]... on based on some certain knowledge you have that your grandparents were not believers in Jesus?[/b]

It is purely hypothetical, and is intended for you to examine the issue critically from all sides.

Originally posted by duecer
It is purely hypothetical, and is intended for you to examine the issue critically from all sides.

Okay.

I don't have too much time this morning. But the first thing I would say is that only God knows the ripple effect of one sin on the fabric of eternity. I don't know that.

I mean, say I come home grumpy from work. In a instance of annoyance I mistakenly over punish my child for something. I inflict a wound in that young human being's soul which lasts a life time.

I do not know the ripple effect of that error on the generations and generations of human beings after me and that child. God from His perspective looking down upon eternity knows. The result of that transgression of mine probably has an effect far greater than I imagine.

An instance of sin is more serious than we know. But a sin against God's holiness is not as serious as a sin against God's authority. Therefore I probably don't know the seriousness of rejecting God in His way to save me from my sins in Christ's salvation. This is not simply a rebellion against God's holy nature. It is a rebellion against God's authority.

How can I rebel against the ultimate authority and not lose?

I can't break even. I can't get out of existence. I certainly can't win at overthrowing God. And I can't hope to get away or escape off to a peaceful non-existence. God has it so that I must lose.

If my grandparents were suffering in eternal perdition, the gospel of Luke shows me that there is only one thing I can do to make them relatively more happy. That is to be sure that I myself don't go to the same place.

The rich man asked that Abraham would make sure that his five remaining brothers would not come to that same place of suffering that the rich man was in. He feared that most of all.

If some loved one was in eternal punishment all I can do to relieve thier woes somewhat is to be sure I get saved and don't go to the same place they are.