Hitler: Part of God's Plan?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
My knowing Hitler's future, as a future person, logically necessitate Hitler's present actions at the time he committed them. If Hitler had done anything other than those actions, I would know a different history.

This seems very unclear, but now, in 2008, I know what Hitler did in say, 1933. In 1932 he didn't know what he'd do in 1933, but I can s ...[text shortened]... will happen. In which case, we are following down a road already known, even if not to us.

"My knowing Hitler's future, as a future person, logically necessitate Hitler's present actions at the time he committed them. If Hitler had done anything other than those actions, I would know a different history." ---scotty---

Ok , now spot the mistake you have made. You are getting there though. Your knowledge of Hitler's actions do not neccessitate anything because your knowledge occurs AFTER his actions and NOT before. You have got the cart before the horse.

You said it yourself . If Hitler had done differently then you would know a different history. Your knowledge of Hitler's actions is entirely dependent on what he does , there is no realtionship between your knowledge and what he did because whatever he does makes no difference. He can do anything and you will still know it.

The ONLY way you know it is because you stand in a particular relationship with Hitler in repect of time. Your present knowledge of Hitler is dictated to by what he does in 1933 or whenever. You know what he will do in HIS future but ONLY because it's your past. The only reason your present is true is because Hitler did those things and at the moment he did them he could have done anything and your present would still be true.

Notice how when you then translated your argument to God you actually didn't translate it properly. You did something sloppy. You talked about "your" present and "Hitler's" future etc etc , but then with God you talked about "THE" future and "the" past. This is VERY important to realise because suddenly time becomes fixed rather than relative.

In any case God is not part of the question yet. The question was how does you knowing Hitler's future (not "THE" future) PROVE that his future could not have been something else. There's nothing in what you said that proves this . All you have proved is that someone does something relative to you in time (your past) and you know what they did. The point is that of course you know because there is no way you can't know it. But this has no bearing on whether it could have been different either way or not.

Originally posted by knightmeister
"My knowing Hitler's future, as a future person, logically necessitate Hitler's present actions at the time he committed them. If Hitler had done anything other than those actions, I would know a different history." ---scotty---

Ok , now spot the mistake you have made. You are getting there though. Your knowledge of Hitler's actions do not neccess ...[text shortened]... has no bearing on whether it could have been different either way or not.

Ok , now spot the mistake you have made. You are getting there though. Your knowledge of Hitler's actions do not neccessitate anything because your knowledge occurs AFTER his actions and NOT before. You have got the cart before the horse.

It's not a mistake. It's the entire point that we have been making to you for the past 600 years. You simply don't seem to understand the implications of your God existing outside of time, quite whatever that means.

For any present situation to occur, certain past events MUST have happenned. Since God knows what the future WILL be, then he knows also what the past MUST be. If that is the case, free will doesn't exist.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Notice how when you then translated your argument to God you actually didn't translate it properly. You did something sloppy. You talked about "your" present and "Hitler's" future etc etc , but then with God you talked about "THE" future and "the" past. This is VERY important to realise because suddenly time becomes fixed rather than relative.

True or false: 'Hitler's past' is a subset of 'THE past.' Or, another way of stating it: 'THE past'
contains within it the entirety of 'Hitler's past.'

Are these true statements?

Originally posted by Nemesio
True or false: 'Hitler's past' is a subset of 'THE past.' Or, another way of stating it: 'THE past'
contains within it the entirety of 'Hitler's past.'

Are these true statements?

Define "THE" past. I cannot answer your question until you tell me whether you are defining "THE" past only from your own relative position in time.

What is "the" past anyway. Does it not mean what is past for us or behind us in time?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
[b]Ok , now spot the mistake you have made. You are getting there though. Your knowledge of Hitler's actions do not neccessitate anything because your knowledge occurs AFTER his actions and NOT before. You have got the cart before the horse.

It's not a mistake. It's the entire point that we have been making to you for the past 600 years. You ...[text shortened]... e, then he knows also what the past MUST be. If that is the case, free will doesn't exist.[/b]

You are still not answering the question and the question does not involve God at this point.

The question is " Why does the fact that we know Hitler's future necessitate that what he does in his life is pre-determined?"

You seem to imply that because we know what Hitler did (his future , which is our past) therefore he must have only been able to do one thing and one thing only.

This would be true if our knowledge of Hitler's future was a PRE- diction , but it's not is it. Our knowledge of Hitler's future is simply just knowledge of what he did and does not prove that he could never have done anything else.

So answer the question.

Here's what you could say "KM, you are right , it is possible for at least one sentient being (me) to know the future of another sentient being (hitler) and this would not prove that he had no free will at that point in time. The reason for this is because if hitler had made any choice at all then I would still know that choice"


Another way of stating my position would be this " If (hypothetically) Hitler really did have free will in 1945 , what difference would it make to your knowledge of his future? Would you still know his future (despite the fact that he would have had many choices available to him) OR would you notice any difference?"

'The sword is appointed to be polished,
to be grasped with the hand;
it is sharpened and polished,
made ready for the hand of the slayer.
ezekiel21.11😞

Originally posted by knightmeister
Define "THE" past. I cannot answer your question until you tell me whether you are defining "THE" past only from your own relative position in time.

What is "the" past anyway. Does it not mean what is past for us or behind us in time?

These are your terms, knightmeister, not mine. You define them, then you tell me if the
statement is true or false.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
These are your terms, knightmeister, not mine. You define them, then you tell me if the
statement is true or false.

Nemesio

Are you saying that the term "the past" is a term made up by me ? How queer? I was under the impression that it was a term used by lots of people.

I would say that Hitlers past is contained within my past but my past has a section between 1945 - 2008 that falls only under the catagory of my past and not Hilter's , as to THE past who knows , As I understand it there is a whole debate about time and what it is and whether the past or futre actually exist etc etc.

Don't you find it strange though how many on this forum seem so definite and catagorical about time when we don't really understand it.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Are you saying that the term "the past" is a term made up by me ? How queer? I was under the impression that it was a term used by lots of people.

I would say that Hitlers past is contained within my past but my past has a section between 1945 - 2008 that falls only under the catagory of my past and not Hilter's , as to THE past who knows , As I und ...[text shortened]... this forum seem so definite and catagorical about time when we don't really understand it.

So you are making definitive statements criticizing other people's viewpoints when you can't
even define your own terms (THE past)?

That's pretty brazen.

And you didn't answer my true/false question.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
So you are making definitive statements criticizing other people's viewpoints when you can't
even define your own terms (THE past)?

That's pretty brazen.

And you didn't answer my true/false question.

Nemesio

I haven't researched deeply into the thread, but as far as I can tell KM only used that phrase in reference to your use of it.

Originally posted by Nemesio
So you are making definitive statements criticizing other people's viewpoints when you can't
even define your own terms (THE past)?

That's pretty brazen.

And you didn't answer my true/false question.

Nemesio

I will answer your question as true but take into account my query regarding what "THE" past is.

I don't want to be evasive , but since I am questioning the nature of time I felt it was worth bringing up. So what's your point now that I have answered "true".

Originally posted by knightmeister
"Notice how when you then translated your argument to God you actually didn't translate it properly. You did something sloppy. You talked about "your" present and "Hitler's" future etc etc , but then with God you talked about "THE" future and "the" past. This is VERY important to realise because suddenly time becomes fixed rather than relative.

Given that God knows 'THE PAST,' and 'THE FUTURE' and 'THE PRESENT' (a component of
omniscience), then He necessarily knows 'Hitler's Future' or 'Knightmeister's Future,'&c.
Consequently, your future is fixed. Consequently, you have no free will.

If God does not does not know 'THE FUTURE,' &c, then He may not know Hitler's future (though
He may). But then He is not omniscient.

Whether He is 'apart from time' or 'within time' or whatever, free will and perfect prognostication
are irreconcilable.

Nemesio

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I haven't researched deeply into the thread, but as far as I can tell KM only used that phrase in reference to your use of it.

Research it.

Originally posted by Nemesio
Given that God knows 'THE PAST,' and 'THE FUTURE' and 'THE PRESENT' (a component of
omniscience), then He necessarily knows 'Hitler's Future' or 'Knightmeister's Future,'&c.
Consequently, your future is fixed. Consequently, you have no free will.

If God does not does not know 'THE FUTURE,' &c, then He may not know Hitler's future (though
He may). Bu ...[text shortened]... atever, free will and perfect prognostication
are irreconcilable.

Nemesio

If TIME is a fixed constant throughout everything then you might be right , if Time can be looked at relatively then you could be wrong.

What if there is no fixed past present or future and it all depends on what perspective you are looking from.

I also don't think God knows "the future" because to him all events are past. It's not a case of him knowing what you WILL do but what you HAVE done. It would be more accurate to say that he knows what you have done in your future . Your future is his past , but he does not know THE future because it's a meaningless term for him. He knows your future as a past event.

This is why I asked you what "the" past actually means and how you define it because unless you do define it you can't really address the issue.

Originally posted by knightmeister
If TIME is a fixed constant throughout everything then you might be right , if Time can be looked at relatively then you could be wrong.

This statement is unintelligible to me.

I also don't think God knows "the future" because to him all events are past. It's not a case of him knowing what you WILL do but what you HAVE done. It would be more accurate to say that he knows what you have done in your future . Your future is his past , but he does not know THE future because it's a meaningless term for him. He knows your future as a past event.

If God knows my future (regardless of whether it is His past), then it is as
if I have already 'chosen' the 'choices.' It means that the sensation of
free choice that I have is entirely illusory, because the events are already
posted in God's past.

Nemesio