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Originally posted by Conrau Ktesting, 1,2,3
[b]I do not wish to rephrase this argument 10 times before you get the point...'m moving on
Hay, you misrepresented what I said. I did not say that I had an infallible knowledge of the future and I do not see how knowledge of a stroke could affect free will. The only relevant knowledge to this discussion is the foreknowledge of future acts. e then in actuality it isn't free-will in the libertarian sense.[/b]
Of course I do.[/b]
Originally posted by ScriabinIs there anyone here now to give us their perspective from 1901?
Is there anyone here now to give us their perspective from 1901?
Surely we know how to use the word "future." We do not use the word in the context you frame. I did not see anyone say this point in time -- which is of course entirely arbitrary -- is more "important" than another. Is not our perception of time, while we have the ability to use the verb " ...[text shortened]... pm EST things at 5:00 pm EST also are fixed.
After all, I could sneeze, or maybe not.
------scriabin---------------------------
No , they are over there in 1901 , just a different co-ordinate on the dimension we call "time". For God 1901 is just as much "now" as it is now.
Originally posted by knightmeisterand you know this how?
Is there anyone here now to give us their perspective from 1901?
------scriabin---------------------------
No , they are over there in 1901 , just a different co-ordinate on the dimension we call "time". For God 1901 is just as much "now" as it is now.
Originally posted by Conrau KOK, so isn't it possible that God could tell me, "in one minute, you will move Qd2 and walk in to a horrendous Knight fork." Can I abstain from making the move?
I think libertarianism, as he defines it, is untenable. But I am on his side that God's knowledge does not preclude free will, even if libertarian.
Originally posted by knightmeisterThe year has nothing to do with it. Once you admit that God can enter our time at any point, and still retain all of his knowledge, then he must have knowledge of the future. If he enters at year 1900, he necessarily knows all of the future from that point on. If he enters at the year 6000 BC, he necessarily knows all of the future from that point on. The fact that he knows the future infallibly means that there can be only one possible future, and there is no such thing as libertarian free will.
What is this thing you call "the future" ? Surely "the future" depends on your standpoint. From a 1901 perspective 1945 is "the future" , why is your particular place in time more important than others?
As if that was not damning enough, you also believe that God can interact with us. He can tell us directly of things we will do in our future, and we are powerless to do otherwise.
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Originally posted by SwissGambitWell, if God is right, then, no, I could not do anything else and I would not want to do anything else because that would be the choice I would want to make.
OK, so isn't it possible that God could tell me, "in one minute, you will move Qd2 and walk in to a horrendous Knight fork." Can I abstain from making the move?
But that is an unfair hypothetical. God does not just know what I will do; He also tries to indirectly influence me to act another way; he changes the circumstances which lead me to make my decision.
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Originally posted by Conrau KNo, it is perfectly fair. I'm playing by KM's rules/belief system. He thinks God can interact with us. That opens up the possibility that God could tell us about things we will do in the future. Indeed, there are at least two such stories in the Bible, and KM believes at least one of the stories actually happened [Simon Peter's denial of Jesus, even after Jesus told him he would do it].
Well, if God is right, then, no, I could not do anything else and I would not want to do anything else because that will be the choice I will want to make.
But that is an unfair hypothetical. God does not just know what I will do; He also tries to indirectly influence me to act another way; he changes the circumstances which lead to make my decision.
Originally posted by SwissGambitFair enough. Again, I do not support everything KM writes. I am only on his side that God's mere knowledge could not preclude free will.
No, it is perfectly fair. I'm playing by KM's rules/belief system. He thinks God can interact with us. That opens up the possibility that God could tell us about things we will do in the future. Indeed, there are at least two such stories in the Bible, and KM believes at least one of the stories actually happened [Simon Peter's denial of Jesus, even after Jesus told him he would do it].
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Originally posted by Conrau KOut of curiousity, which claims of KM's do you reject?
Fair enough. Again, I do not support everything KM writes. I am only on his side that God's mere knowledge could not preclude free will.
Of the statements you made, my main disagreement is with the following:
And anyway, I should think that I do have an infallible knowledge about what actions I will make, at least in the near future. I know that I will post because I know my character. I know that I have a desire to post; I know that my desire will not change. I can prove it to you by posting.I would dispute that your knowledge is infallible. Yes, it is highly likely that you will post, but you cannot be 100% certain that you will, and that's what's required to claim infallibility.
Originally posted by SwissGambitOut of curiousity, which claims of KM's do you reject?
Out of curiousity, which claims of KM's do you reject?
Of the statements you made, my main disagreement is with the following:[quote]And anyway, I should think that I do have an infallible knowledge about what actions I will make, at least in the near future. I know that I will post because I know my character. I know that I have a desire to post; I k ...[text shortened]... you cannot be 100% certain that you will, and that's what's required to claim infallibility.
Almost all of them. He is constantly enwrapped in this 'problem' of God and time and I suspect that most of the time is simply obfuscating.
Yes, it is highly likely that you will post, but you cannot be 100% certain that you will, and that's what's required to claim infallibility.
Yes, but the only things which could have prevented me would be things outside my control such as a stroke or the breakdown of my computer. I do not see how knowledge of that is exactly relevant. I do not see how God's knowledge of my hypothetically ineluctable stroke could impinge on my free will. And anyway, barring that, ceteris paribus, I would post. I know this because I know my desires and my character. But my knowledge is not forcing to act. It still my decision. It is within my power not to post; I just know I will not choose that.
God, being omniscient, should also know how I will act. I think this affirms free will, not denies it. If God did not know how I would act, that must mean that I am acting unpredictably and in a random manner. That would surely deny free will.
Originally posted by SwissGambitMethinks you worry too much about the future. You don't have the same problems with His infallible knowledge about the past, for some reason.
The year has nothing to do with it. Once you admit that God can enter our time at any point, and still retain all of his knowledge, then he must have knowledge of the future. If he enters at year 1900, he necessarily knows all of the future from that point on. If he enters at the year 6000 BC, he necessarily knows all of the future from that point on. Th ...[text shortened]... e can tell us directly of things we will do in our future, and we are powerless to do otherwise.
Knowledge doesn't equate with manipulation, and your scenarios all demand that God specifically tell us everything. We couldn't handle all of it and therefore, He doesn't. He limits the information to just what we need.
Originally posted by ScriabinHow is it you have knowledge of this? Where are these facts for us to examine?
How is it you have knowledge of this? Where are these facts for us to examine?
I only ask so I can look ahead and see when this @#!%$% market is going to bottom out.
I knew I should have sold and got out when it hit 14,000. Not trusting my own judgment, I had "faith" in my broker's judgment as surely he knew more about these things than I did.
Wel ...[text shortened]... le to fix all this.
Since the future is "fixed" that ought to be possible .... hmmmmm?
Revelation of Scripture is our source for knowing the specifics of God's power.
I only ask so I can look ahead and see when this @#!%$% market is going to bottom out.
A proper orientation to the truths of God will always lead to profit.
If I had tomorrow or next week or next months' financial pages, I might be able to fix all this.
Since the future is "fixed" that ought to be possible .... hmmmmm?
I wonder that profit you would count if, in gaining the entire world, your soul was cast into Hell at the end of your life?
Originally posted by Conrau KYes, but the only things which could have prevented me would be things outside my control such as a stroke or the breakdown of my computer.
[b]Out of curiousity, which claims of KM's do you reject?
Almost all of them. He is constantly enwrapped in this 'problem' of God and time and I suspect that most of the time is simply obfuscating.
Yes, it is highly likely that you will post, but you cannot be 100% certain that you will, and that's what's required to claim infallibility.
...[text shortened]... I am acting unpredictably and in a random manner. That would surely deny free will.[/b]
Not so. It is possible for people to change their minds, even on short notice. Perhaps you suddenly remember that you have something more important to do and thus do not post as you originally intended.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHThe reason I concentrated on knowledge of the future was to debunk knightmeister's claim that god only knows thing 'after' they happen.
Methinks you worry too much about the future. You don't have the same problems with His infallible knowledge about the past, for some reason.
Knowledge doesn't equate with manipulation, and your scenarios all demand that God specifically tell us everything. We couldn't handle all of it and therefore, He doesn't. He limits the information to just what we need.