1. Standard memberHand of Hecate
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    15 Jun '07 15:14
    Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
    At the very last second I realized that this was not in fact Hand of Hecate out for another goof.

    Whew! That was a close one.
    Hey! I resemble that remark.

    I'd hand both you and sonhouse your ass in a religious debate. I'm pretty sure that I could make sonhouse's head explode in confussed fury.

    2 Corinthians 11:19 You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!
  2. Joined
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    15 Jun '07 15:452 edits
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    Although I was talking about something different , but I will try to answer you:

    Bingo:

    (Nobel-Translation)(Al-Maidah)(o 90 o)(90. O you who believe! Intoxicants -all kinds of alcoholic drinks-, gambling, Al­Ansâb , and Al­Azlâm -arrows for seeking luck or decision- are an abomination of Shaitân's -Satan- handiwork. So avoid -strictly all- that -abomination- in order that you may be successful . )

    All forms of gambling are forbidden in Quran.

    All forms of alcoholic drinks are also forbidden. In haddeth (What prophet said), any matrial that could resulting in a low awareness or lack of awareness is considered the same as alcoholic drinks. So using this measure cannabis is forbidden.

    Also Quran say:
    (Nobel-Translation)(Al-Baqarah)(o 172 o)(172. O you who believe -in the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism-! Eat of the lawful things that We have provided you with, and be grateful to Allâh, if it is indeed He Whom you worship.)

    I don't think cannabis is lawful thing.

    Also Quran say:
    (Nobel-Translation)(Al-Baqarah)(o 195 o)(195. And spend in the Cause of Allâh -i.e. Jihâd of all kinds, etc.- and do not throw yourselves into destruction -by not spending your wealth in the Cause of Allâh-, and do good. Truly, Allâh loves Al-Muhsinûn -the good-doers-.)

    So anything that affect human health is also forbidden, as it is like throwing yourself into destruction. I'm not sure of that but if cannabis affects the human health then it is also forbidden for that reason.
    --

    Lesbianism:

    Quran Say:

    (Nobel-Translation)(An-Nur)(o 30 o)(30. Tell the believing men to lower their gaze -from looking at forbidden things-, and protect their private parts -from illegal sexual acts, etc.-. That is purer for them. Verily, Allâh is All-Aware of what they do.)

    So here all illegal sexual acts are forbidden.

    The only legal sexual acts are marriage.

    did I meet your interest?

    EDIT: I don't think I do understand what you want correctly. But if he really belived in the real GOD , and follow what he wants from him, then I think his life would have been very different. He claimed to believe in GOD , which he didn't know, and when his life destroyed because of what he did to it, he blames GOD for it, while he didn't know him from the first place.
  3. Standard memberblakbuzzrd
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    15 Jun '07 15:59
    Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
    Hey! I resemble that remark.

    I'd hand both you and sonhouse your ass in a religious debate. I'm pretty sure that I could make sonhouse's head explode in confussed fury.

    2 Corinthians 11:19 You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!
    I'd appreciate it greatly if you didn't hand my ass to sonhouse.

    That's kinda weird, man.
  4. Illinois
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    15 Jun '07 20:27
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    Although I was talking about something different , but I will try to answer you:

    Bingo:

    (Nobel-Translation)(Al-Maidah)(o 90 o)(90. O you who believe! Intoxicants -all kinds of alcoholic drinks-, gambling, Al­Ansâb , and Al­Azlâm -arrows for seeking luck or decision- are an abomination of Shaitân's -Satan- handiwork. So avoid -strictly all- that -abomi ...[text shortened]... of what he did to it, he blames GOD for it, while he didn't know him from the first place.
    What the Quran is missing is grace. From what you have written it is obvious that those who believe in Allah are not under God's grace, but are instead under the curse of God's law. I mean, how is it possible to perfectly obey the law? Are not all men eventually condemned by God's law? I find it extremely hard to believe that anyone can live their entire lives without breaking God's law at least once. Who can ever be pleasing to Allah, if no one can ever obey the law perfectly? Apparently, then, submission to Allah really means submission to the curse of God's law.

    This is God's grace: the king of the Jews, Jesus Christ, died for the sins of the whole world, so that any (Muslims included) who believe in him will inherit eternal life. The truth is that all men are condemned by God's law no matter how hard they try to submit to it. It is only by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, that a man can gain entrance into heaven.

    Please consider the following verse:

    Romans 5:1-9 -- “Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God. And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.

    "For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person someone might actually dare to die. But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us. Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God."

    If you ever fail to perfectly obey Allah, always remember that Jesus Christ will be waiting for you with open arms, ready to redeem you by his shed blood on the cross.
  5. Donationkirksey957
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    15 Jun '07 20:35
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    What the Quran is missing is grace. From what you have written it is obvious that those who believe in Allah are not under God's grace, but are instead under the curse of God's law. I mean, how is it possible to perfectly obey the law? Are not all men eventually condemned by God's law? I find it extremely hard to believe that anyone can live t ...[text shortened]... be waiting for you with open arms, ready to redeem you by his shed blood on the cross.
    Did you notice anything unusual about the "Jesus and the twelve disciples " thread?
  6. Standard memberblakbuzzrd
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    15 Jun '07 20:38
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Did you notice anything unusual about the "Jesus and the twelve disciples " thread?
    A suspiciously missing "c" in the thread title?
  7. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    15 Jun '07 20:53
    Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
    Hey! I resemble that remark.

    I'd hand both you and sonhouse your ass in a religious debate. I'm pretty sure that I could make sonhouse's head explode in confussed fury.

    2 Corinthians 11:19 You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!
    Don't you have any ideas of your own?
  8. Donationkirksey957
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    15 Jun '07 20:56
    Originally posted by blakbuzzrd
    A suspiciously missing "c" in the thread title?
    We really can't devote too much attention to spelling in these forums. If we did, we would never have time to read the Bible.

    I just thought it ironic that the Muslim had more to say about Jesus and the twelve disciples and showed some understanding of the journey of the faith than the Christians. Just an observation.
  9. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    15 Jun '07 20:59
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    Although I was talking about something different , but I will try to answer you:

    Bingo:

    (Nobel-Translation)(Al-Maidah)(o 90 o)(90. O you who believe! Intoxicants -all kinds of alcoholic drinks-, gambling, Al­Ansâb , and Al­Azlâm -arrows for seeking luck or decision- are an abomination of Shaitân's -Satan- handiwork. So avoid -strictly all- that -abomi ...[text shortened]... of what he did to it, he blames GOD for it, while he didn't know him from the first place.
    You, like hand, apparently know everything your God wants, without much reference to him.. Who are you to judge us?
  10. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    15 Jun '07 21:00
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    We really can't devote too much attention to spelling in these forums. If we did, we would never have time to read the Bible.

    I just thought it ironic that the Muslim had more to say about Jesus and the twelve disciples and showed some understanding of the journey of the faith than the Christians. Just an observation.
    I observe that too, despite being real drunk....
  11. Joined
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    15 Jun '07 22:07
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    What the Quran is missing is grace. From what you have written it is obvious that those who believe in Allah are not under God's grace, but are instead under the curse of God's law. I mean, how is it possible to perfectly obey the law? Are not all men eventually condemned by God's law? I find it extremely hard to believe that anyone can live t ...[text shortened]... be waiting for you with open arms, ready to redeem you by his shed blood on the cross.
    How many times did you read the Quran to say that it is missing Grace?

    I was answering a specific points, and I didn't write the complete Quran to say it does miss grace or anything. Any way lets see what you say and what Quran sayes:

    From what you have written it is obvious that those who believe in Allah are not under God's grace, but are instead under the curse of God's law. I mean, how is it possible to perfectly obey the law?

    The law is to organize human life, not make human life harder. GOD's law is like any other law. Why does any country has a law? What it is for? GOD gave us law to organize our life, the only difference is the law of GOD is perfect. Can you perfectly obey the law of your country or not. Both GOD law and my country law forbbid killing , and stealing for example. Why do you think GOD law is curse while my country law is not.

    It is paul who add this idea to Christianity, he called the law of GOD as curse, although Jesus stated in many places that he didn't come to break the law. That is why GOD send prophet Mohammed. To return people back to the law of GOD.

    Are not all men eventually condemned by God's law?

    That is a very strange idea. How can you call it GOD's law then say it is a curse and men condemned by it. Do you think that GOD don't know what is the best for men. If he knows how the best, how can the law be a curse. And if it is a curse why Jesus didn't say that.

    I find it extremely hard to believe that anyone can live their entire lives without breaking God's law at least once.

    I agree, but what is the problem. GOD teach us in Quran (and also in the Bible) that he accept repentance from the siner and he forgives every sin to whom he wants, and that is the real grace and mercy, that you know your GOD ask his forgivness, and he accept you without conditions or blood scrifice. Read these verse:

    (Nobel-Translation)(Az-Zumar)(o 53 o)(53. Say: "O 'Ibâdî -My slaves- who have transgressed against themselves -by committing evil deeds and sins-! Despair not of the Mercy of Allâh, verily Allâh forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)

    (Nobel-Translation)(An-Nisaa)(o 116 o)(116. Verily! Allâh forgives not -the sin of- setting up partners in worship with Him, but He forgives whom he pleases sins other than that, and whoever sets up partners in worship with Allâh, has indeed strayed far away.)

    (Nobel-Translation)(Al-Baqarah)(o 218 o)(218. Verily, those who have believed, and those who have emigrated -for Allâh's Religion- and have striven hard in the Way of Allâh, all these hope for Allâh's Mercy. And Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most-Merciful.)

    (Nobel-Translation)(An-Nisaa)(o 174 o)(174. O mankind! Verily, there has come to you a convincing proof -Prophet Muhammad - from your Lord, and We sent down to you a manifest light -this Qur'ân-. )
    (Nobel-Translation)(An-Nisaa)(o 175 o)(175. So, as for those who believed in Allâh and held fast to Him, He will admit them to His Mercy and Grace -i.e. Paradise-, and guide them to Himself by a Straight Path.)



    I don't know is you still think that Quran missing Grace. It only misses Paul's teachings.

    Who can ever be pleasing to Allah, if no one can ever obey the law perfectly?
    Allah Say in Quran:
    (Nobel-Translation)(At-Tagabun)(o 16 o)(16. So keep your duty to Allâh and fear Him as much as you can; listen and obey; and spend in charity, that is better for yourselves. And whosoever is saved from his own covetousness, then they are the successful ones.)

    Does this answer your question?

    Apparently, then, submission to Allah really means submission to the curse of God's law.
    I think I talked enough about this, it is Paul who called the law a curse, no body else, even Jesus. And from that I see you follow Paul, not, GOD, not Jesus.

    ---

    This is God's grace: the king of the Jews, Jesus Christ, died for the sins of the whole world, so that any (Muslims included) who believe in him will inherit eternal life. The truth is that all men are condemned by God's law no matter how hard they try to submit to it. It is only by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, that a man can gain entrance into heaven.

    All what you said has no support from what Jesus said or did. You might find some in Paul writings. But sure Paul didn't believe in Jesus divinity. If you make some readings you will realize that what you said doesn't make any sense. Do you think that GOD only forgive people and give them grace through blood and human sacrifice? Is this the loving GOD you talk about.

    Please consider the following verse:

    Romans 5:1-9 -- “Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God. And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.

    "For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person someone might actually dare to die. But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us. Much more surely then, now that we have been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God."


    I'm not surprized that you reference Paul to prove your point. Becuase only Paul who teached that. Jesus never talked about that. I believe in Jesus and I follow him. But you believe in Paul and follow him, I don't think you will be saved.

    If you ever fail to perfectly obey Allah, always remember that Jesus Christ will be waiting for you with open arms, ready to redeem you by his shed blood on the cross.

    Jesus didn't die on the cross, and why do you think I will search for another GOD if Allah tell me if you fail repent to me and I will forgive you. I think you are loosing your way my friend.
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    15 Jun '07 22:12
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    We really can't devote too much attention to spelling in these forums. If we did, we would never have time to read the Bible.

    I just thought it ironic that the Muslim had more to say about Jesus and the twelve disciples and showed some understanding of the journey of the faith than the Christians. Just an observation.
    Muslims believe in Jesus the same way is we do with prophet Muhammed. And it is important to us to tell the truth about him, the truth that was corrupted by many during the last centuries.

    If you read the Quran you will realize that Muslims have a lot to say about Jesus.

    Note: Did you ever heard that Jesus talked while he was a baby to prove to Jews that his mother is not Guilty of commiting adultry. This story is not found in the canonical gospels, but it is found in Quran, and I heard that it was found in some other gospels that were not accepted in necia.
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    15 Jun '07 22:15
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    You, like hand, apparently know everything your God wants, without much reference to him.. Who are you to judge us?
    I'n nothing , and I'm not judging anyone. I'm reading from Quran. If I appeared to be judging I'm appologize for that.

    Read the following verses:

    (Nobel-Translation)(Al-Kahf)(o 103 o)(103. Say -O Muhammad -: "Shall We tell you the greatest losers in respect of -their- deeds?)

    (Nobel-Translation)(Al-Kahf)(o 104 o)(104. "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they thought that they were acquiring good by their deeds!)


    I'm just afraid that you will meet what these verses talking about.
  14. Donationkirksey957
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    15 Jun '07 22:57
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    Muslims believe in Jesus the same way is we do with prophet Muhammed. And it is important to us to tell the truth about him, the truth that was corrupted by many during the last centuries.

    If you read the Quran you will realize that Muslims have a lot to say about Jesus.

    Note: Did you ever heard that Jesus talked while he was a baby to prove to Jews ...[text shortened]... d in Quran, and I heard that it was found in some other gospels that were not accepted in necia.
    There is a perceived reputation of a special relationship between Jewish boys and their mothers, but this is a new one for me. Thanks for pointing it out.
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    16 Jun '07 02:09
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    They all have words but they cant all be right. My version says that EcstremeVenom and LivingForJesus are severely lacking in intelligence. Do you believe that bit is true?
    that was a joke, and sarcasm. you are lacking intelligence for not noticing that
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