how cant you belive in God!

Originally posted by ahosyney
Muslims believe in Jesus the same way is we do with prophet Muhammed. And it is important to us to tell the truth about him, the truth that was corrupted by many during the last centuries.

If you read the Quran you will realize that Muslims have a lot to say about Jesus.

Note: Did you ever heard that Jesus talked while he was a baby to prove to Jews ...[text shortened]... d in Quran, and I heard that it was found in some other gospels that were not accepted in necia.

There is a perceived reputation of a special relationship between Jewish boys and their mothers, but this is a new one for me. Thanks for pointing it out.

Originally posted by twhitehead
They all have words but they cant all be right. My version says that EcstremeVenom and LivingForJesus are severely lacking in intelligence. Do you believe that bit is true?

that was a joke, and sarcasm. you are lacking intelligence for not noticing that

Originally posted by ahosyney
How many times did you read the Quran to say that it is missing Grace?

I was answering a specific points, and I didn't write the complete Quran to say it does miss grace or anything. Any way lets see what you say and what Quran sayes:

From what you have written it is obvious that those who believe in Allah are not under God's grace, but are instea and I will forgive you. I think you are loosing your way my friend.

It is paul who add this idea to Christianity, he called the law of GOD as curse, although Jesus stated in many places that he didn't come to break the law. That is why GOD send prophet Mohammed. To return people back to the law of GOD.

Paul did not add this idea to Christianity. Neither did he call the law of God itself a curse. His exact words on the subject were as follows:

"The law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good. Did what is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, working death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure" (Romans 7:7, 12-13).

Paul's point being that the law of God is 'holy and just and good', but men are incapable of obeying it, and therefore men remain under the 'curse' of the law. God's standard is perfect holiness, so men require a perfect sacrifice for their sins. Jesus Christ is that sacrifice: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us” (Galatians 3:13).

Yes, Christ did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17). He fulfilled the law by dying for the sins of the world on the cross. Therefore, as the fulfillment of the law, he can say, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me" (John 14:16), "for God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life" (John 3:16).

I respect your piety, but the bible makes it clear that "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness" (Hebrews 9:22). How does Allah forgive you without violating his own law? If the law is 'holy and just and good', mustn't it condemn you for violating it? If Allah forgives you for transgressing his law, then he himself would be breaking his own law. How can a holy god (Allah) subvert the justice of a holy law without making provision? But Allah has made no such provision...

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob makes provision for our forgiveness through Jesus Christ's death on the cross: "And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10). But the Quran gives no substantial means for Allah to forgive sins. To me, this detracts heavily from the integrity of the Quran.

So it is no surprise that you believe that a 'false Christ' died on the cross in Jesus' place, as that belief keeps you from having to recognize the grace that comes through Jesus Christ. By denying the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ you deny the forgiveness of sins. Thereby nullifying the integrity of the Gospel. Only in this way can you keep from seeing the hopelessness of merely submitting to Allah's laws.

I believe in Jesus and I follow him. But you believe in Paul and follow him.

You don't believe in Jesus Christ, at least not in the way Jesus meant you to. Jesus said he was to die on the cross for the sins of the world: "just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life" (John 3:14-15). These are not Paul's words, these are Jesus Christ's words. He continues: "“Listen,” he said, “we’re going up to Jerusalem, where the Son of Man will be betrayed to the leading priests and the teachers of religious law. They will sentence him to die and hand him over to the Romans. They will mock him, spit on him, flog him with a whip, and kill him, but after three days he will rise again" (Mark 10:33-34 ).

I don't think you will be saved.

Ah, but I am already saved! 🙂 Why? Because I believe in Jesus Christ; his death covers all my sins and in him I have been made into a new creature, and sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption because I believe in him: "All who believe in the Son of God know in their hearts that this testimony is true. Those who don’t believe this are actually calling God a liar because they don’t believe what God has testified about his Son. And this is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have God’s Son does not have life" (1 John 5:10-12).

Again, this gospel is not exclusive to Paul, but is mirrored by the apostles as well, as they have all spoken under the power of the Holy Spirit:

"All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation, and we have a priceless inheritance—an inheritance that is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay. And through your faith, God is protecting you by his power until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see" (1 Peter 1:3-5).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]It is paul who add this idea to Christianity, he called the law of GOD as curse, although Jesus stated in many places that he didn't come to break the law. That is why GOD send prophet Mohammed. To return people back to the law of GOD.

Paul did not add this idea to Christianity. Neither did he call the law of God itself a curse. His exact wor evealed on the last day for all to see" (1 Peter 1:3-5).[/b]

"The law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good. Did what is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, working death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure" (Romans 7:7, 12-13).

Paul's point being that the law of God is 'holy and just and good', but men are incapable of obeying it, and therefore men remain under the 'curse' of the law. God's standard is perfect holiness, so men require a perfect sacrifice for their sins. Jesus Christ is that sacrifice: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us” (Galatians 3:13).


Very well put. I hope ahosney recieved a little education.

Very good.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]It is paul who add this idea to Christianity, he called the law of GOD as curse, although Jesus stated in many places that he didn't come to break the law. That is why GOD send prophet Mohammed. To return people back to the law of GOD.

Paul did not add this idea to Christianity. Neither did he call the law of God itself a curse. His exact wor evealed on the last day for all to see" (1 Peter 1:3-5).[/b]

Paul did not add this idea to Christianity. Neither did he call the law of God itself a curse.

I think you are wrong: Read this..

(king James Version)(Galatians)(Gal-48-13)(Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree🙂

He didn't only call it a curse, but also he made Jesus himself a curse. So even if he said the law is a holy he will be contradicting himself.

As I said before the idea of Blood scrifice to forgive sins is from Paul, and you used Paul writings to prove your point, nothing else.

It is paul who said that without Blood there is no forgivness, while GOD say something different and Jesus say something different. Jesus clearly said that he came to call siner to repentance. And if you read Ezk:18 you will realize that GOD forgive sins throught repentance. So you will see that you are following Paul.

He fulfilled the law by dying for the sins of the world on the cross.

Again that is what Paul preached not Jesus. Jesus was teaching the law, and asking his students to follow the law. Wasn't Jesus teaching the law in the tempel? Why did he do that?

Why don't you follow the law now if you follow Jesus?

he can say, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me" (John 14:16),

Every prophet is the way and truth and life for his follower. This doesn't prove anything. Didn't you ask yourself "he is the way to what?", he is the way to the father , the true GOD. The way is sure different from the destination.

for God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life" (John 3:16).

Jesus is not the only son for GOD in the Bible. There are many sons throughout the Bible, including all Jews. So either Jesus not telling the truth, this scripture is not from GOD, or there is a problem in the translation, you pick one.

And in the Bible "son of GOD" usually means a close man to GOD. So all prophets are sons of GOS, and all prophets give to those who believe in them eternal life. Jesus is talking like any other prophet.

Givin that he was only sent to Jews (not for every one) then you will have another problem with this scripture.

I respect your piety, but the bible makes it clear that "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness" (Hebrews 9:22). How does Allah forgive you without violating his own law?

As you can see you refereing to Paul, (if we assumed that he was Paul because I the writter of the Hebrews is Paul) because GOD's law is different. If you read Ezekiel:18 you will know how GOD forgives sins, and if he needs blood sacrifice for it. Do you believe in Ezekiel:18?

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob makes provision for our forgiveness through Jesus Christ's death on the cross: "And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10). But the Quran gives no substantial means for Allah to forgive sins. To me, this detracts heavily from the integrity of the Quran.

Again you refere to Hebrews, to prove your point.

1- The writter of the Hebrews is not known. How can I accept a book that I don't know who wrote it, and reject another book that I have enough evidences to know it is from GOD.

2- If you say it is Paul who wrote it , then again Paul is saying something that Jesus didn't teach and doesn't exist before him.

So it is no surprise that you believe that a 'false Christ' died on the cross in Jesus' place, as that belief keeps you from having to recognize the grace that comes through Jesus Christ. By denying the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ you deny the forgiveness of sins. Thereby nullifying the integrity of the Gospel. Only in this way can you keep from seeing the hopelessness of merely submitting to Allah's laws.

Why do you think I need a mediator between me and GOD? Why don't you accept that the GOD who loves his people could forgive their sins without that much complications. Why do you need and idole to connect you to GOD. Jesus is Just a man and a prophet, sent for Jews to return them to GOD's way, can you say something else.

You don't believe in Jesus Christ, at least not in the way Jesus meant you to.

OK, lets say what Jesus wants us to believe:
(king James Version)(John)(Jn-43-3)(And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.)[/b]

Here Jesus talks to the father and say that he is the only true GOD , and Jesus was sent from him. I do believe in that , do you?

Jesus said he was to die on the cross for the sins of the world: "just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life" (John 3:14-15).

You said Jesus said he will die on the cross for the sins of the world, while the scripture you gave doesn't say any of that. The word cross doesn't exist. It is just a conclusion.


These are not Paul's words, these are Jesus Christ's words. He continues: "“Listen,” he said, “we’re going up to Jerusalem, where the Son of Man will be betrayed to the leading priests and the teachers of religious law. They will sentence him to die and hand him over to the Romans. They will mock him, spit on him, flog him with a whip, and kill him, but after three days he will rise again" (Mark 10:33-34 ).

Again here he didn't say that this alll happen for sin forgivness of the world. And I have a different explaination for it. Jesus here is not talking about himself. Because he said:

(king James Version)(Matthew)(Mt-40-31)(Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.)

-----------------------------------
I got tired 🙂

My post was to replay to you post about Quran missing the grace. I was not comparing to Christianity , and I didn't want to start this. Although you didn't answer my post. Do you still think that Quran is missing the Grace?

I wounder why you didn't answer may , may be because you don't read Quran as I do with the Bible.

Any way I wish you read Ezkial:18 and compare to what I said from Quran. Then compare to Paul's writtings may be you can realize the truth.

Have a nice weekend

EDIT:
Also think about this scriptures and tell me if I'm wrong:
[i]
(king James Version)(Mark)(Mk-41-10)(And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.)
(king James Version)(Mark)(Mk-41-11)(And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables🙂
(king James Version)(Mark)(Mk-41-12)(That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.)


Here Jesus was teaching his dispiles and there were others who were listening to him, and Jesus gave a parables that no one understanded even the 12 dispiles. So the 12 displies asked him about it. I have some questions, I will give my answer and I'm waiting for yours:

1- Why was Jesus was talking in Parables that no one even the displies didn't undetstand?

My Answer: Because there was some non-Jews listening and he didn't want them to understand what he is saying.

Your Answer:

2- Why Jesus didn't want them to understand?

My Answer: Becuase if they did understand they will convert and their sin will be forgiven.

Your Answer:


3- Why do you think Jesus didn't want their sin to be forgiven?
My Answer: Because they are not Jews, and Jesus only was sent to Jews.

Your Answer:

4- How sins are forgiven as seen from these scriptures?

My Answer: Conversion and returning to GOD is enough to forgive sins.

Your Answer:

5- Was Jesus sent to the whole World?

My Answer: No

Your Answer:

-------------
I hope to see your answers

Again have a nice week end.

ahosney,

think you are wrong: Read this..

(king James Version)(Galatians)(Gal-48-13)(Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

He didn't only call it a curse, but also he made Jesus himself a curse. So even if he said the law is a holy he will be contradicting himself.

If you are saying every word uttered by the Apostle Paul was not uttered by Jesus in exactly the same way, you have a superficial case that Paul taught something else.

If you are selecting one passage and saying Paul said thus and ignoring what else he also wrote, then you have a superficial case.


As I said before the idea of Blood scrifice to forgive sins is from Paul, and you used Paul writings to prove your point, nothing else.

Read the words of Jesus in Matthew 26 Give special attention to verses 28. "For this is My blood of the COVENANT, which is being poured out for many for forgiveness of sins"

Consider also the words of Christ's forerunner John the Baptist. That is that Jesus was the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world. The imagery of the atoning paschal lamb of the Old Testament clearly proves that the shedding of Christ's blood was for propitiation of sins committed.

Jesus did not contradict John the Baptist on this point.


It is paul who said that without Blood there is no forgivness,

Paul was quoting the Old TEstament. Since you are astute in looking up Bible verses tell exactly what passage in the Old Testament Paul was quoting.

I'm sure you can do that. You do the work this time.


while GOD say something different and Jesus say something different. Jesus clearly said that he came to call siner to repentance.

False. Saying something IN ADDITION to this is not necessarily saying something DIFFERENT.

I fear all that you will do is point to some other passage where OTHER things are spoken besides this subject matter.


And if you read Ezk:18 you will realize that GOD forgive sins throught repentance. So you will see that you are following Paul.

I follow the Apostle Paul as he was a follower of Christ.

And though repentence is important in the Bible it is the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all sins. Even your tears of repentence need to be washed in the blood of Jesus.

Your remorse, your tears, your wanting to change, will not cleanse the record of your sins before God/ What cleanses your sins before God is that you were judged in Christ. Justice was imputed for your sins on the cross of Jesus.

This becomes appropriated to you when the resurrected Jesus becomes appropriated to you. When Jesus comes to you His finished work comes with Him, to you. This procedure has not been established by man. It has been established by the authority of God.


Jesus was teaching the law, and asking his students to follow the law. Wasn't Jesus teaching the law in the tempel? Why did he do that?

Ultimately Jesus taught us to abide in Him and He in us - John 15.

To abide in Him He must be alive. He not only must be alive He must be enterable and a realm within Whom we can live, remain, act, and abide. This requires His resurrection from the dead which is what both He and the apostles taught (including Paul).

For Him to abide in us requires that He be in a form in which He can enter into man. "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor .15:45)

And of course Christ becoming a life giving Spirit is in total and complete agreement with His discourse in John chapters 14 through 16.

So the bottom line of Christ's treaching is John 15:4 - "Abide in Me and I in you."

It is clear that apart from abiding in Him and He in us we can do nothing. We can do nothing for God's eternal plan apart from abiding IN Christ and He abiding IN us. And all that we do apart from abiding in Christ and He in us will amount to NOTHING.
. Read this for yourself in John 15.

All law keeping done apart from abiding in Christ and He abiding in us as life giving Spirit will amount to a huge pile of NOTHING before God in the end.

"Apart from Me you can do NOTHING ...." (See John 15:4,5)


That is all I will write in this post. There's more to be said.

ahosney writes:

+++++++++++++++++
Jesus is not the only son for GOD in the Bible. There are many sons throughout the Bible, including all Jews. So either Jesus not telling the truth, this scripture is not from GOD, or there is a problem in the translation, you pick one.
+++++++++++++++++++++

On this side of the resurrection of Jesus all the sons of God are produced through Jesus Christ. They have no other way to come into existence:

"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:26)

It is "THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS" that human beings become "sons of God".

Paul taught this because Jesus taught it. Where? In the Gospel of John BEFORE the resurrection of Christ the most intimate term He used for His disciples was "friends" (John 15:14-15). After His resurrection He refered to the disciples as "My brothers" (John 20:17)

Jesus Christ on this side of resurrection is "leading many sons into glory" (Hebrews 2:10)

The sons of God were produced through faith in Him and He is leading the many sons of God into the glorious expression of the Divine Being.

Furthermore these are the sons of God predestinated for "SONSHIP" before the creation of the world:

"Predestinating us unto sonship though Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:5)

The previous verse says that this good will was God's act of choosing some people to be sons "before the foundation of the world". All this means that it was God's eternal purpose before He created the universe to have sons of God through Jesus Christ.

So before any mention of other "sons" of God besides those mentioned in the New Testament, God's eternal plan was that the final "sons" would be produced through Jesus the Son of God.

Any other sons of God such as the mentioning of angels as His sons in thebook of Job or the mentioning of Adam as the son of God because He came directly from God's creating hand in Luke, are superceeded by the eternally planned sons of God through Christ's salvation.

It is to those who are reborn in regeneration by RECIEVING Christ who are given the authority to become children of God:

"But AS MANY a received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name,

Who were begotten not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12,13)

A man or woman has to be given the authority by God. One cannot become a son of God through natural birth. One cannot become one by the will power of the fallen man - "the flesh". One can also not become a son of God even by the will power of the good unfallen man created by God before sin entered.

The authority is granted to become a son of God by being begotten of God. And only those who received Christ can be begotten of God.

Those who reject Christ and intend not to receive Christ into their being cannot be sons of God.

The partakers of "sonship" do so in the realm and sphere of Jesus Christ - "Even as He chose us IN HIM ... predestinating us unto SONSHIP through Jesus Christ" (Eph. 1:4,5)

Christ is the sphere and realm as a living Person in which sons of God are produced.

Sons of God are also only produced by those who are led by the Spirit of the Son of God:

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God these are sons of God" (ROmans 8:14)

And it is abundantly clear that the Spirit of God there in verse 14 is the Spirit of Christ and even Christ Himself from verses 9 through 11:

"if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you, Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you ..."

No one who rejects Christ can have the Spirit of Christ. This is because Christ is the Spirit - "Now the Lord IS THE SPIRIT" (2 Cor. 3:17) Or put another way, the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ in another form, in His pneumatic form. He is the Spirit. He became a life giving Spirit - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor .15:45)

He taught that He would come to abide in the one who loves Him. He taught that He would come to live in the receiver of Him who loves Him:

"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him" (John 14:23)

Jesus and His Father will come to the lover of Jesus and They as the Divine "We" will make an abode with such a one.

Since the Spirit of the Son of God can come into the receiver of Christ that one can call God Daddy - Abba Father:

"And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father! As sons we are no longer slaves under the law of Moses. And we are made to inherit God Himself. We are heirs of God:

So then you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, an heir also thorugh God" (Gal. 4:6,7)


The Moslem has no case whatsoever that the resurrected Christ does not produce the genuine sons of God planned by God in eternity past.

ahosney, you should drop forever these Islamic propoganda twistings in opposition to the truth of the New Testament Gospel of Jesus.

Originally posted by jaywill
ahosney,

[b] think you are wrong: Read this..

(king James Version)(Galatians)(Gal-48-13)(Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

He didn't only call it a curse, but also he made Jesus himself a curse. So even if he said the law is a holy he will ...[text shortened]... 4,5)


That is all I will write in this post. There's more to be said.[/b]

Please tell me what do you think about Ezkiel 18. You keep ignoring this.

You said that Paul was refereing to the OLD Tastement when he was talking about blood sacrifice. So you must know where he was refering too.

In Ezkiel 18 GOD said that repentence is enough for sin forgivness.
Jesus said that repentence is enough for sin forgivness.
Paul said that there is no forgivness without Blood sacrifice.(If Paul said it, because no one knows who wrote Hebrews, do you?)

So who do you think I should believe?

You keep repeting your words again and again, but never answer me. What does Ezkiel 18 means?

Originally posted by jaywill
ahosney writes:

[b]+++++++++++++++++
Jesus is not the only son for GOD in the Bible. There are many sons throughout the Bible, including all Jews. So either Jesus not telling the truth, this scripture is not from GOD, or there is a problem in the translation, you pick one.
+++++++++++++++++++++

On this side of the resurrection of Jesus all ...[text shortened]... truth[/b] of the New Testament Gospel of Jesus.[/b]

ahosney, you should drop forever these Islamic propoganda twistings in opposition to the [b]truth of the New Testament Gospel of Jesus.[/b]

🙂

What propoganda and what truth?

Did you follow what is going on in this thread? I was talking from Quran , and your friend switched to the Bible.

Any way , Muslims are not the only ones who don't believe in your very complicated faith.

Every one knows that you are the leader of propoganda in this forum, if you think that you are the only one who has rights here then I think you are mistaken. You are free to say what ever you want , and I'm free to say what ever I want. I never lied about Jesus Christ, and your truth is a perfect lie about him !!!

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b] ahosney, you should drop forever these Islamic propoganda twistings in opposition to the [b]truth of the New Testament Gospel of Jesus.[/b]

🙂

What propoganda and what truth?

Did you follow what is going on in this thread? I was talking from Quran , and your friend switched to the Bible.

Any way , Muslims are not the only ones who don't at ever I want. I never lied about Jesus Christ, and your truth is a perfect lie about him !!![/b]

I think the thread is simply a question which has to do with how could people not believe in God.

Of course a Moslem has every right to answer that question.

But you wrote statements about the Gospel of Christ which are wrong. And I corrected them.

No, I don't own the Spirituality Forum. But if you utter wrong things about the Gospel I may correct your misspeaking and show you why you're wrong.

So, ahosney, what I said is what I said. And I stand by what I said.

Complicated misrepresentations sometimes call for complicated corrections.

ahosney wrote:

++++++++++++++++++++++++
1- The writter of the Hebrews is not known. How can I accept a book that I don't know who wrote it, and reject another book that I have enough evidences to know it is from GOD.

2- If you say it is Paul who wrote it , then again Paul is saying something that Jesus didn't teach and doesn't exist before him.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

No, we don't know for sure who write Hebrews. I think it most likely was the Apostle Paul. But I couldn't insist on that.

The book of Hebrews itself makes the point that all Scripture is the speaking of the Holy Spirit or the speaking of God. So Hebrews as a book itself makes the point that who wrote it is secondary. God is speaking in the Scripture.

Showing that Hebrews goes generally along with Christ's teaching in the four gospels is too much of an issue to deal with in one post. We are not writing books here, only short posts.

But Hebrews is in two major sections. It first speaks of Christ's earthly ministry. Then it speaks about Christ's heavenly ministry.

It speaks about His ministry from on the earth before His resurrection. Then it turns and speaks of Christ's heavenly ministry from heaven after His resurrection and ascension.

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]Paul did not add this idea to Christianity. Neither did he call the law of God itself a curse.

I think you are wrong: Read this..

(king James Version)(Galatians)(Gal-48-13)(Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree🙂

He didn't only call it a cu ...[text shortened]... see your answers

Again have a nice week end.[/b]

He didn't only call it a curse, but also he made Jesus himself a curse. So even if he said the law is a holy he will be contradicting himself.

Christ was made a 'curse' because he took upon himself the just punishment of the law for all sinners, not because he is a 'curse' by nature. His nature is holy and innocent, and because he perfectly obeyed the law himself, his sacrifice, his being made a 'curse' in our place on the cross, procured the forgiveness of sins for all who believe in him. Since the judgment of the law is death, Christ suffered death, but since he was also innocent, God raised him from the dead and glorified him.

So you see, there is no contradiction here. What you mistakenly claim to be a contradiction is really the character of God's grace in Jesus Christ, who, though he was without sin, bore the sins of the world upon himself. In the crucified Christ is God's suffering love for mankind, and much more glorifying to God than anything Mohommed ever did.

It is paul who said that without Blood there is no forgivness, while GOD say something different and Jesus say something different. Jesus clearly said that he came to call siner to repentance. And if you read Ezk:18 you will realize that GOD forgive sins throught repentance. So you will see that you are following Paul.

God made 'provision' for the forgiveness of sins, once for all time in the crucifixion of Christ on the cross. "We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10). The Israelite's blood sacrifices in the OT were merely prefiguring Christ's sacrifice. However, the requirement of shed blood for forgiveness of sins was made abundantly clear by the countless sacrificial bulls slaughtered from generation to generation of Israelites. Obviously, then, the 'shed blood requirement for remission of sins' is not something Paul concocted on his own without precedent; far from it!

'He fulfilled the law by dying for the sins of the world on the cross.'

Again that is what Paul preached not Jesus. Jesus was teaching the law, and asking his students to follow the law. Wasn't Jesus teaching the law in the tempel? Why did he do that? Why don't you follow the law now if you follow Jesus?

Who ever said Christians don't follow the law? Christians are taught to follow the law. "As He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy"" (1 Peter 1:15-16). Faith does not exempt one from living a holy life, on the contrary, faith "establishes the law" (Romans 3:31).

We (Christians) do not obey the law in order to earn God's favor, we obey the law because the Spirit of God has written God's law on our hearts; the Spirit of God which we received when we first believed in Jesus Christ, through Whom we have the power to know and do God's perfect will. Again, not an idea original to Paul (Jeremiah 31:33).

he can say, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me" (John 14:16),

Every prophet is the way and truth and life for his follower. This doesn't prove anything.

Yes, but he said it roughly 1,500 years before Mohammed did. 🙂

Didn't you ask yourself "he is the way to what?", he is the way to the father , the true GOD. The way is sure different from the destination.

Oh, really? Read the rest of the passage:

"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him" (John 14:6-7).

And in the Bible "son of GOD" usually means a close man to GOD. So all prophets are sons of GOD, and all prophets give to those who believe in them eternal life. Jesus is talking like any other prophet.

Not so. You've left out the distinction "only" Son. That means there is only one of him. I'm sure the common Greek word for 'son' is used in conjunction with "only", but nevertheless, this passage speaks of the ONLY SON of God.

Givin that he was only sent to Jews (not for every one) then you will have another problem with this scripture

Again, not true.

The prophecy regarding the Gentiles in Hosea clearly says that Christ came to redeem all men, whether Jew or Gentile: "I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God" (Hosea 2:23).

Also consider these passages: "In his name shall the Gentiles trust" (Matthew 12:21). "For my eyes have seen your salvation that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to your people Israel" (Luke 2:30-32). "If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life"" (Acts 11:17-18).

Clearly, Jesus Christ was sent to the Jews first, but when they rejected him, his message was sent to the Gentiles too. That's you and me...

If you read Ezekiel:18 you will know how GOD forgives sins, and if he needs blood sacrifice for it. Do you believe in Ezekiel:18?

You are obviously not privy to the fact that Christ was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8). The provision for forgiveness existed in God before the world was even made, long before Ezekiel 18 was written. When God forgives, it is through the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," whether in the Old Testament or the New.

'The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob makes provision for our forgiveness through Jesus Christ's death on the cross: "And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10). But the Quran gives no substantial means for Allah to forgive sins. To me, this detracts heavily from the integrity of the Quran.'

Again you refere to Hebrews, to prove your point.

If you want I can use any book in the NT to prove my point... 🙂

You said Jesus said he will die on the cross for the sins of the world, while the scripture you gave doesn't say any of that. The word cross doesn't exist. It is just a conclusion.

"And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross" (Matthew 27:32).

""You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross"" (Matthew 27:40).

"He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him" (Matthew 27:42).

"And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha" (John 19:17).

"And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS" (John 19:19).

This is fun...

Any way I wish you read Ezkial:18 and compare to what I said from Quran. Then compare to Paul's writtings may be you can realize the truth.

I've already addressed this issue in this post, i.e. the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world..."

Originally posted by kirksey957
We really can't devote too much attention to spelling in these forums. If we did, we would never have time to read the Bible.

I just thought it ironic that the Muslim had more to say about Jesus and the twelve disciples and showed some understanding of the journey of the faith than the Christians. Just an observation.

I agree; it seems to me he knows a lot more about both Christianity and Islam than many Christians know even about Christianity.

Originally posted by ahosyney
So you will see that you are following Paul.

Agreed. It is interesting how much of Christian doctrine is determined by Paul and not Jesus.

Originally posted by wittywonka
Agreed. It is interesting how much of Christian doctrine is determined by Paul and not Jesus.

Christ had a earthly ministry. Then He died and resurrected. Then He ascended to the right hand of God in the third heavens. From there He continued His ministry from heaven.

Christ had an earthly ministry and then a heavenly ministry. The heavenly ministry is the continuation of His ministry from heaven.

The earthly portion of Christ's ministry is covered in the four gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The heavenly ministry commences to be covered mainly from the book of Acts and through the epistles.

Who are the people who maintain that Paul changed Christ's teaching? It is the people who erroneously think that Christ's earthly ministry was His only ministry. The people who think that Christ no longer lives are also the people who do not believe that today Christ continues His ministry from heaven - the heavenly ministry.

The earthly ministry of Christ deals mostly with the Christ who was OUTSIDE of man's being. After His resurrection He was imparted INTO His disciples. From heaven He continues His ministry as the indwelling Christ who is the divine life and divine nature living in the disciples.

Who are the people who claim that Paul changed the teaching of Jesus? They are the people who do not have the indwelling presence of the Spirit of Christ from His post resurrection activity. He continues His ministry by dispensing Himself into people's inner being to be their life. Those who do not have this experience are mainly the ones wanting to say that Paul changed things. They only know of the earthly ministry of Christ.

So you are dead wrong to think that Paul added something not of Christ. What Paul ministered was sourced in the heavenly ministry of Christ. If you think that Jesus is dead and gone and that only what He taught is in the four gospels, you will of course disregard what the Apostles continued to teach after Christ began His heavenly ministry.

Christ Himself prophesied and predicted that His apostles would carry on His ministry from heaven with the Holy Spirit. This continuation starts to be covered in Acts. It is further elaborated in the epistles including those of Paul.

If you reject what the Apostle Paul taught you reject the heavenly ministry of the resurrected and ascended Christ.

Your fight here is NOT against the Apostle Paul. It is against the resurrected and ascended Christ Who continues His ministry through the apostles.