1. Standard memberCalJust
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    27 Jan '14 13:503 edits
    Originally posted by KingOnPoint
    CalJust,
    One thing is that Christ only had the Old Testament scriptures to "interpret."

    Christ brought "grace and truth." Even the Israelites who were given the Law of God were looking forward in time for the Messiah to come. Perhaps, we can call this a new way of God's dealing with the whole world rather than dealing with just the Israelites. Thus, there is reason for the New Testament of the bible.
    Hi KoP,

    I am trying to distil the essence of what I think you are saying, and I partially agree with you. Let's see if you partially agree with me!

    (Btw, I see no point in replying to all the various scriptures you quoted, mainly because I fail to see the relevance to this discussion!)

    Your main point seems to be that the Israelites in the OT had only partial truth. Bingo, full marks there.

    Can we now draw the conclusion that the NT has given us the Full Truth?

    If that is your position, why then would Jesus say: "I will send you the HS and He will guide you into the Truth?!" (with the corollary that "you are not yet ready to receive it"!)

    Surely what he meant was that TRUTH is something that is constantly unfolding. Under the guidance of the HS we will see things in a different light, right up until the end when we all will no longer see "through a glass darkly".

    It is my contention that most of the things that Paul wrote about were culturally and historically determined. For example, there are still groups today who will emphatically NOT "suffer women to speak in church" and to "have their head covered". Some (let's call them more enlightened, for lack of a better word) will point out that those verses should not be taken literally, and "times have changed".

    It is in THAT context that I wanted to pick up the issue of Exclusivity, and "dis-fellowshipping" which was discussed in the JW thread. Of course it was VERY important in the days of Paul, (when there was only one identifiable group that called themselves Christian), to preserve the "purity of the Faith" it was necessary to physically distance themselves from those that caused dissension and heresy. Hence the numerous verses on that subject.

    Today (sadly!) we have a vastly different situation. The True Church is fragmented and camouflaged and difficult to identify (although most groups would lay claim to that title!) In that new context, what we sorely need is Reconciliation rather than more Fragmentation.

    If we accept the fact that most of the NT was written to a particular group of people living under particular circumstances, then we can apply the same PRINCIPLES to us today, who are living in vastly different circumstances, rather than the literal words.

    That is what I meant by interpreting the Bible and not taking it literally. And that is what I believe Jesus did.

    In peace,

    CJ
  2. PenTesting
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    27 Jan '14 16:073 edits
    Originally posted by CalJust
    Hi KoP,

    I am trying to distil the essence of what I think you are saying, and I partially agree with you. Let's see if you partially agree with me!

    (Btw, I see no point in replying to all the various scriptures you quoted, mainly because I fail to see the relevance to this discussion!)

    Your main point seems to be that the Israelites in the OT had on ...[text shortened]... the Bible and not taking it literally. And that is what I believe Jesus did.

    In peace,

    CJ
    I agree with your take on the writings of the Apostles. People should be able to separate what is essential to apply now and what was only applicable at that time. Those who cannot do that take an all or nothing approach because they do not have a strong sense of discrimination or discernment.

    What you are calling the True Church is in my opinion composed of all those who are disciples of Christ ie Christ brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers. They are those who do the will of God and follow the commandments of Christ, chief of which is to love God and love your neighbour as themselves [Christ gave numerous examples of that], and harped on that so many times that is is a shock that so many Christians gloss over and and sideline what He said. Even the writings of the Aposltes is 90% about love, holiness, righteousness and good works. These are the general principles which are timeless and cannot change. Fussing about hair, and dress and gold and such trivial matters tell that the some are not able to apply the teachings with discretion.

    These people the True Church are in all walks of life, all religions, all nations, all strata of society, all races. Some Catholics, some Protestants some JWs, some Hindus, some Muslims. Christ knows what he is looking for and it is very far from what many preach around here.

    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Revelation 22:12-15 KJV)


    Just my 2 cents.
  3. Standard memberCalJust
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    28 Jan '14 11:02
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Even the writings of the apostles is 90% about love, holiness, righteousness and good works. These are the general principles which are timeless and cannot change.

    The True Church are people in all walks of life, all religions, all nations, all strata of society, all races. Some Catholics, some Protestants some JWs, some Hindus, some Muslims. Christ knows what he is looking for and it is very far from what many preach around here.


    Very well said, Rajk999. Much more than 2 cents worth! 😀

    I just wonder how many on RHP support this view. I fear we are in the minority!

    In peace

    CJ
  4. R
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    28 Jan '14 17:441 edit
    Originally posted by CalJust
    [b]Even the writings of the apostles is 90% about love, holiness, righteousness and good works. These are the general principles which are timeless and cannot change.

    The True Church are people in all walks of life, all religions, all nations, all strata of society, all races. Some Catholics, some Protestants some JWs, some Hindus, some Muslims. Christ ...[text shortened]... just wonder how many on RHP support this view. I fear we are in the minority!

    In peace

    CJ
    It is ironic that he can sound so magnanimous in one moment and turn around the next moment and sound like no one can teach the Bible rightly but himself.

    Mention justification by faith and immediately all that magnanimous sounding inclusiveness goes out the window fast.
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
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    28 Jan '14 23:53
    Originally posted by CalJust
    [b]Even the writings of the apostles is 90% about love, holiness, righteousness and good works. These are the general principles which are timeless and cannot change.

    The True Church are people in all walks of life, all religions, all nations, all strata of society, all races. Some Catholics, some Protestants some JWs, some Hindus, some Muslims. Christ ...[text shortened]... just wonder how many on RHP support this view. I fear we are in the minority!

    In peace

    CJ
    The are no longer Hindus or Muslims once they become members of the Christian church.
  6. PenTesting
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    29 Jan '14 01:19
    Originally posted by CalJust
    [b]Even the writings of the apostles is 90% about love, holiness, righteousness and good works. These are the general principles which are timeless and cannot change.

    The True Church are people in all walks of life, all religions, all nations, all strata of society, all races. Some Catholics, some Protestants some JWs, some Hindus, some Muslims. Christ ...[text shortened]... just wonder how many on RHP support this view. I fear we are in the minority!

    In peace

    CJ
    Thanks. I can only think of one other person, Pudgenik that makes similar statements
  7. PenTesting
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    29 Jan '14 01:23
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The are no longer Hindus or Muslims once they become members of the Christian church.
    Members? Who said anything about being a member?
  8. Standard memberCalJust
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    29 Jan '14 16:031 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    It is ironic that he can sound so magnanimous in one moment and turn around the next moment and sound like no one can teach the Bible rightly but himself.

    Mention justification by faith and immediately all that magnanimous sounding inclusiveness goes out the window fast.
    Sonship, you do a lot of posting, so you should really pay a little more attention to what people are REALLY saying, before jumping in with your mind made up!

    For the record: NOWHERE have I ever said that MY interpretation of the Bible is correct! I have consistently pointed out that NOBODY (me definitely included) can ever say that! We ALL bring our own baggage, history and worldview to the table. If anything, my plea is for tolerance of each others weaknesses and more understanding of others' interpretations. (Did you notice that I do not even begrudge the JWs their point of view?!)

    Your second point: As far as I can recollect, I did not get involved in the "discussion" about Works and Faith (if that is what you are referring to. All I said is that I support Suzianne's comments that this discussion between two professing Christians is nitpicking, futile and in bad taste.
  9. PenTesting
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    29 Jan '14 16:31
    Originally posted by CalJust
    Sonship, you do a lot of posting, so you should really pay a little more attention to what people are REALLY saying, before jumping in with your mind made up!

    For the record: NOWHERE have I ever said that MY interpretation of the Bible is correct! I have merely pointed out that NOBODY (me definitely included) can ever say that! We ALL bring our own baggag ...[text shortened]... s that this discussion between two professing Christians is nitpicking, futile and in bad taste.
    This made me laugh .. 😀 You will see why in a few minutes.

    Anyhow the Faith only camp has been on my case for years. They feel that Im a works only guy which is absolutely incorrect. For years I have been saying that you must take what Christ said about works seriously. So Im really and FAITH + WORKS person. That represents the full doctrine of Christ and the Apostles... both faith and works play an essential part in eternal life.
  10. Standard membergalveston75
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    29 Jan '14 16:37
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    In most cases, I believe a literal interpretation is the correct way.
    So you "believe" literal interpretation is the corrrect way? You need to be sure, not just what you think on your own.

    Proverbs 3:5
    Good News Translation (GNT)
    5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Never rely on what you think you know.

    "How do Jehovah’s Witnesses arrive at their explanation of the Bible"?


    A key factor is that the Witnesses really believe that the Bible is God’s Word and that what it contains is there for our instruction. (2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Rom. 15:4; 1 Cor. 10:11) So they do not resort to philosophical arguments to evade its clear statements of truth or to justify the way of life of people who have abandoned its moral standards.
    In pointing out the meaning of symbolic language in the Bible, they let the Bible provide its own explanation, instead of giving their theories as to its significance. (1 Cor. 2:13) Indications as to the meaning of symbolic terms are usually found in other parts of the Bible. (As an example, see Revelation 21:1; then, regarding the meaning of “sea,” read Isaiah 57:20. To identify “the Lamb” referred to in Revelation 14:1, see John 1:29 and; 1 Peter 1:19.)
    As for fulfillment of prophecy, they apply what Jesus said about being alert to events that correspond to what was foretold. (Luke 21:29-31; compare 2 Peter 1:16-19.) Conscientiously they point out those events and draw attention to what the Bible indicates they mean.
    Jesus said that he would have on earth a “faithful and discreet slave” (his anointed followers viewed as a group), through which agency he would provide spiritual food to those making up the household of faith. (Matt. 24:45-47)
    Jehovah’s Witnesses recognize that arrangement. As was true of first-century Christians, they look to the governing body of that “slave” class to resolve difficult questions—not on the basis of human wisdom, but by drawing on their knowledge of God’s Word and his dealings with his servants, and with the help of God’s spirit, for which they earnestly pray.—Acts 15:1-29; 16:4, 5.
  11. Standard memberCalJust
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    29 Jan '14 16:59
    Originally posted by galveston75
    "How do Jehovah’s Witnesses arrive at their explanation of the Bible"?

    Thanks for this well reasoned treatise, G (And I am being totally sincere!)
    My comments are in your text.

    A key factor is that the Witnesses really believe that the Bible is God’s Word and that what it contains is there for our instruction. So they do not resort to philosophical arguments to evade its clear statements of truth or to justify the way of life of people who have abandoned its moral standards.

    Nothing wrong with that. Every single Bible-believing denomination will say exactly that.

    In pointing out the meaning of symbolic language in the Bible, they let the Bible provide its own explanation, instead of giving their theories as to its significance.

    Bingo! I hear a lot of Amens! all round!

    As for fulfillment of prophecy, they apply what Jesus said about being alert to events that correspond to what was foretold. Conscientiously they point out those events and draw attention to what the Bible indicates they mean.

    Still right on target.

    Jesus said that he would have on earth a “faithful and discreet slave” (his anointed followers viewed as a group), through which agency he would provide spiritual food to those making up the household of faith.

    Well, maybe not by using the exact same words, but all religions (the Catholic Church being maybe the most obvious example, but Mormons also) trace their doctrinal purity to a continuation from divine inspiration.

    Jehovah’s Witnesses (CJ: insert your own brand in here) recognize that arrangement. As was true of first-century Christians, they look to the governing body of that “slave” class to resolve difficult questions—not on the basis of human wisdom, but by drawing on their knowledge of God’s Word and his dealings with his servants, and with the help of God’s spirit, for which they earnestly pray.

    So far I cannot find any fault in this system, it is logical, workable, and most of all, Biblical.

    Which is why every group of believers basically follows the same pattern and process, with various small differences in detail.

    So we should all agree, shouldn't we?
  12. Standard membergalveston75
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    29 Jan '14 17:22
    Originally posted by CalJust
    [b] "How do Jehovah’s Witnesses arrive at their explanation of the Bible"?

    Thanks for this well reasoned treatise, G (And I am being totally sincere!)
    My comments are in your text.

    A key factor is that the Witnesses really believe that the Bible is God’s Word and that what it contains is there for our instruction. So they do not resort to p ...[text shortened]... and process, with various small differences in detail.

    So we should all agree, shouldn't we?
    No we shouldn't. You speak of other religions like the Catholics for example. Many beliefs they have are never mentioned in the Bible and are not supported by the Bible.
    Just one example is the Bible clearly says we pray thru Jesus and it is only thru Jesus that we communicate with God and seek forgiveness of our daily sins.
    The Catholics have a completely different view and practice. One can go into a little room and have the Preist forgive your sins for you. This is not ever in the Bible and was never once shown to happen and conflicts with what Jesus told us.
    Another simple one is the Bible says we have only 1 spiritual "Father" and that is God. In fact the bible in Matthew says to call no man your father ( in a spiritual setting) but yet the Catholics do.
    Just a couple simple points....
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    29 Jan '14 22:59
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Members? Who said anything about being a member?
    I did. The true chruch is composed of members that make up the body with the head being Christ, according to the spostle Paul. You seem to have something against the apostle Paul because you are always trying to contradict him.
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    29 Jan '14 23:051 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    This made me laugh .. 😀 You will see why in a few minutes.

    Anyhow the Faith only camp has been on my case for years. They feel that Im a works only guy which is absolutely incorrect. For years I have been saying that you must take what Christ said about works seriously. So Im really and FAITH + WORKS person. That represents the full doctrine of Christ and the Apostles... both faith and works play an essential part in eternal life.
    I have no faith in my works or your works. I have faith that Christ will continue to do His works.
  15. SubscriberSuzianne
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    29 Jan '14 23:09
    Originally posted by CalJust
    Sonship, you do a lot of posting, so you should really pay a little more attention to what people are REALLY saying, before jumping in with your mind made up!

    For the record: NOWHERE have I ever said that MY interpretation of the Bible is correct! I have consistently pointed out that NOBODY (me definitely included) can ever say that! We ALL bring our own ...[text shortened]... s that this discussion between two professing Christians is nitpicking, futile and in bad taste.
    He was speaking of Rajk999, not you.
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