1. Standard memberCalJust
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    20 Jan '14 15:23
    One of the things that never ceases to amaze me, is how “Christians” use the Bible to batter one another and to prove a particular point!

    A good recent example is the thread “ A JW Contradiction….” where a whole list of verses are quoted that encourage the exclusion of certain categories of deviants from our safe and cosy fellowship circles. It should come as no surprise that ALL these verses quoted by RC and Galveston have been used by uncounted others, (including me in my unenlightened past) against other groups (like the JWs), who did not “adhere to the doctrine that I had received ” and hence were considered accursed.

    Fact is, every single group in Christianity use the Bible to justify their own interpretation and behaviour.

    That raises the question: How did Jesus interpret the Scriptures that he had at his disposal?

    Well, it is abundantly clear that he differed the most in its interpretation with the established clergy of his day, who invariably interpreted the Scriptures absolutely literally, and without any feelings of compassion, understanding and love.

    Here are some examples:
    • The woman caught in adultery. The Religious Experts (i.e. the local RJHs) said: “The Bible says clearly we must stone her!” But Jesus said to her (and I paraphrase): “That may well be what is written there, but don’t let that bother you. There is a Deeper Law at work here - I do not condemn you, go and sin no more.”

    • The writing of a divorce letter: Again, the Holy People said: “This is what the Bible says! One can give a woman a letter of divorce and that is that!” But again Jesus said: “That is what Moses may have said, but that is not really what God intended!”

    • Lastly, the many times when Jesus “broke the Sabbath”. Confusion and anger amongst the spiritual elite, since it was clearly stipulated so in their Bible!

    Bottom line: the literal interpretation of the Bible is always the LOWEST form of truth. What is much more important is how the general principles of God’s intentions and values come through as seen throughout the Bible, and these are always based on love, compassion and empathy.

    Jesus was always on the side of the downtrodden, the outcasts, the disempowered, and NOT on the side of the self-righteous “our-group-has-the-full-and-only-truth” hypocrites who want to divide the world into ”us-vs-them”.

    Another Scripture worth remembering: The letter kills, but the spirit gives life!
  2. Donationrwingett
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    20 Jan '14 16:04
    Originally posted by CalJust
    One of the things that never ceases to amaze me, is how “Christians” use the Bible to batter one another and to prove a particular point!

    A good recent example is the thread “[b] A JW Contradiction….
    ” where a whole list of verses are quoted that encourage the exclusion of certain categories of deviants from our safe and cosy fellowship circles. It sho ...[text shortened]... -them”[/b].

    Another Scripture worth remembering: The letter kills, but the spirit gives life![/b]
    Maybe I'm missing something here, but all of the books of the bible were written after Jesus' death.
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    20 Jan '14 16:10
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Maybe I'm missing something here, but all of the books of the bible were written after Jesus' death.
    Are you saying that there was no OT in the time of Christ?
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    20 Jan '14 16:19
    Originally posted by CalJust
    How did Jesus interpret the Scriptures that he had at his disposal?
    Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Christ message was to love God and your neighbour as yourself.
  5. Donationrwingett
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    20 Jan '14 16:49
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Are you saying that there was no OT in the time of Christ?
    No, that was around. But all of the examples quoted in the OP come from the New Testament. None of that was written until after Jesus' death.
  6. SubscriberSuzianne
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    20 Jan '14 16:55
    Originally posted by rwingett
    No, that was around. But all of the examples quoted in the OP come from the New Testament. None of that was written until after Jesus' death.
    No, the scriptures brought up in the OP go back to the Torah, the books that Moses wrote on the Law from God. The examples of how Jesus reacted to these laws come from the NT, of course, but the scriptures he's talking about are all from the Torah.
  7. Donationrwingett
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    20 Jan '14 17:05
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    No, the scriptures brought up in the OP go back to the Torah, the books that Moses wrote on the Law from God. The examples of how Jesus reacted to these laws come from the NT, of course, but the scriptures he's talking about are all from the Torah.
    Alright, I see the point now. Carry on.
  8. Standard memberRJHinds
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    21 Jan '14 05:17
    Originally posted by CalJust
    One of the things that never ceases to amaze me, is how “Christians” use the Bible to batter one another and to prove a particular point!

    A good recent example is the thread “[b] A JW Contradiction….
    ” where a whole list of verses are quoted that encourage the exclusion of certain categories of deviants from our safe and cosy fellowship circles. It sho ...[text shortened]... -them”[/b].

    Another Scripture worth remembering: The letter kills, but the spirit gives life![/b]
    Jesus came to fulfill the law of the first covenant and bring in a new covenant. If the first covenant was perfect there would be no need of a new covenant. The first covenant was a shadow of the new and better covenant that came in through the works of Jesus.
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    21 Jan '14 06:39
    Originally posted by CalJust
    One of the things that never ceases to amaze me, is how “Christians” use the Bible to batter one another and to prove a particular point!

    A good recent example is the thread “[b] A JW Contradiction….
    ” where a whole list of verses are quoted that encourage the exclusion of certain categories of deviants from our safe and cosy fellowship circles. It sho ...[text shortened]... -them”[/b].

    Another Scripture worth remembering: The letter kills, but the spirit gives life![/b]
    Yes, and "mercy triumphs over judgement".

    Organised religion takes the letter of the law and turns it into a weapon to control people with, to beat them with. It is used by those who seek power over the laity, who are the actual church, the house and body of Christ.

    Organised religion is a beast that stands vicariously in place of Christ, it says "look to me", instead of saying "look to The Lord". Jesus said "I have come to fulfil the law" and in this one statement sits the profound nature of the good news for mankind. Freedom, hope and life.
  10. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    21 Jan '14 07:39
    I wonder why Jesus never wrote anything down ? ...........................
  11. Standard memberCalJust
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    21 Jan '14 07:59
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Jesus came to fulfill the law of the first covenant and bring in a new covenant. If the first covenant was perfect there would be no need of a new covenant. The first covenant was a shadow of the new and better covenant that came in through the works of Jesus.
    I am not disputing that point at all, but it is irrelevant to my argument.

    Jesus "reinterpreted" certain specific writings in their own Holy Scriptures with eternal truths.

    In the same way we should "reinterpret" the writings of Paul and others I the NT with the same eternal truths.

    For example, the whole issue of "dis-fellowshipping" in the thread I mentioned.

    Sure, all those verses are in the Bible, and MANY groups, not only JWs, but Mormons, Plymouth Brethren and Latter Rain people, just to mention three, rigorously apply these verses.

    I know from personal experience the immense heartache, pain and sorrow, not to mention bitterness, that arises when a father and mother disown their daughter who has "left the faith". I know personally such parents (and vice versa, children towards their parents) who will cross the road rather than meet them in the streets.

    The Pharisees amongst us will righteously say: But it is Scriptural! That is what it says right here!

    However, I cannot possibly imagine Jesus ever having that attitude - in fact, I doubt seriously whether he would agree with what Paul wrote there! Everything in his life showed that he would NOT reject anybody, but always kept the door open for reconciliation and acceptance.

    Only people who rigorously apply the written word without any other considerations of compassion and understanding, will carry out these verses.

    And that is one of the most serious shortcomings of Fundamental Christianity.

    In peace

    CJ
  12. Standard memberRJHinds
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    21 Jan '14 08:23
    Originally posted by CalJust
    I am not disputing that point at all, but it is irrelevant to my argument.

    Jesus "reinterpreted" certain specific writings in their own Holy Scriptures with eternal truths.

    In the same way we should "reinterpret" the writings of Paul and others I the NT with the same eternal truths.

    For example, the whole issue of "dis-fellowshipping" in the thread ...[text shortened]...
    And that is one of the most serious shortcomings of Fundamental Christianity.

    In peace

    CJ
    It is clear that Moses was not perfect like Jesus, but he did the best he could under the situation. I believe the same can be said of the Apostle Paul. It seems clear to me that the apostle Paul was not dealing strickly with saintly Christians at the time. But there seems to be no need to judge them harshly for trying to get the people to do God's will. Certainly Jesus did not judge Moses as being wrong for allowing divorce, but blamed it on the harshness of the people heart.
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    21 Jan '14 08:30
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    I wonder why Jesus never wrote anything down ? ...........................
    Jesus did write something down. We just don't know what.

    This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.

    (John 8:6 NKJV)
  14. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    21 Jan '14 08:41
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Jesus did write something down. We just don't know what.

    [b]This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.


    (John 8:6 NKJV)[/b]
    Brilliant!
    "God" writes in the dirt.
    Didn't occur to him to use paper & pen!

    His message is meant for all future generations
    (which he supposedly knows about) ... why not
    use an I-Pad? Or leave some Word doc on a flash drive?
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
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    21 Jan '14 08:42
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Brilliant!
    "God" writes in the dirt.
    Didn't occur to him to use paper & pen!

    His message is meant for all future generations
    (which he supposedly knows about) ... why not
    use an I-Pad? Or leave some Word doc on a flash drive?
    You are acting like an infidel now.
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