Originally posted by sonshipPrecisely.It became altogether too much for me to swallow, I'm afraid, sonship. And once the credibility of the canon was dealt that blow, my faith in its authenticity ~ in its entirety ~ fell away. These things happen.
Did you also have similar problems with [b]Daniel, Ezekiel, and Zechariah ?
There is nothing that absolutely ...[text shortened]...
It is a grand finale like a great symphonic recapitulation of many aforementioned themes.[/b]
"a great symphonic recapitulation" -- this is a beautiful turn of phrase.
Originally posted by divegeester
In the meantime do you agree that claiming that "death" means the same as "eternal suffering" is nonsensical and therefore an erroneous interpretation?
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (Reference Page 6)
divegeester, here's a brief explanation of the confusing words in context from Scofield's Reference. Thanks for your patience.
"Notes Second death, Summary: "The second death" and the "lake of fire" are identical terms Rev 20:14 and are used of the eternal state of the wicked. It is "second" relative to the preceding physical death of the wicked in unbelief and rejection of God; their eternal state is one of eternal "death" (i.e. separation from God) in sins Jn 8:21,24. That the second death is not annihilation is shown by a comparison of Rev 19:20 20:10. After one thousand years in the lake of fire the Beast and False Prophet are still there, undestroyed. The words "forever and forever" "to the ages of the ages" are used in Heb 1:8 for the duration of the throne of God, eternal in the sense of unending." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/20-14.htm
God exhausts every possibility in seeking to save us by reconciling us to Himself. Romans 2: 2-5 describes the impartiality of God: "2. Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4. Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5. But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;" Failure to adjust to the Justice of God leaves eternal condemnation as the only alternative.
God blesses adjustment and curses maladjustment (rejection of Christ as Savior) to His Justice. If God didn't remain consistent in the function of His Justice [Romans 2:11 "For there is no partiality with God."] He would not be God because He would have no integrity, which is the guarantee of our salvation. A loving God doesn't reject unbelievers; the unbeliever rejects the love of God that was demonstrated at Christ's crucifixion on Golgotha Hill as a substitute for all mankind.
At the conclusion of the Millennium all human beings who have rejected Christ will appear before Him presiding in terrible majesty from the Great White Throne for the Last Judgment. Jesus Christ will personally sentence each of them to join Satan and the rest of the fallen angels to suffer in the Lake of Fire separated from God forever.... (Revelation 20:14-15)
Heb 9:27 "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment;"
divegeester, there's no way around the fact that both Old and New Testaments integrate information regarding the Lake of Fire as sonship has summarized. Yes, it is an awful specter to realize the entire being of unbelievers will suffer excruciatingly for eternity, especially when a believer's family member or close friend have rejected the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ. However, it's an emotional argument to disagree with any aspect of the Word of God because it's painful to accept. Past few days I've searched for biblical leeway but have found only confirmation. Annihilation of unbelievers is not part of God's Plan. "The second death" and the "lake of fire" are identical terms." Rev 20:14 I'll continue searching. -Bob
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI think "to disagree" with these things you assert to be true is quite simply due to not believing the same things as you believe, and not "an emotional argument". For me ~ for example ~ the things you claim about the afterlife are not "painful" at all. So having different beliefs from you is not a "painful" or "emotional" thing at all.
However, it's an emotional argument to disagree with any aspect of the Word of God because it's painful to accept.
The Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15 NASB) [Thread is now closed January 4, 2014] Thread 157295
"If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15*
"This is the saddest and most sobering passage in all of Scripture. Remember our Lord wept over death (John 11:35; Luke 19:41) - both physical death and especially the spiritual death (the second death) of all the unsaved, of all those who reject Him and His saving love offered at the cross. "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!" (Ezek. 33:11) Thus no man should be able to read or teach this passage without sorrow in his heart, if not tears in his eyes. The reason Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone else did is because He wanted no one to go there. "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9; also see John 3:16) Yet, we see here and throughout the Bible, both the reality of hell, eternal torment, and the justice of hell.
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them." The next scene John saw was the great white throne with the Lord Jesus Christ sitting upon it. This is based on John 5:22: "Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father." (Also see John 5:22-29 that speaks of the resurrection of the saved and the unrepentant and 2 Tim. 4:1.) At this point in this unfolding revelation, all those saved, Old and New Testament saints, Tribulation saints, and by implication, Millennial saints, have all received their resurrected, glorified bodies and thus belong to the new creation (2 Cor. 5:17) as God is about to destroy the old creation, the heavens and the earth (v.11).
"By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness." (See 2 Peter 3:7-13) "Since the coming of the Lord is in fact the end of the natural universe (2 Pet. 3:10-13), we read that there was found no place for them (v. 11), making way for a new heaven and a new earth to occupy the place left vacant by their dismissal" (21:1).Gregg, Steve: Revelation, Four Views : A Parallel Commentary. Nashville , Tenn. : T. Nelson Publishers, 1997. Satan and his demons have defiled the heavens (Eph. 6:12) and the earth is polluted and sin-soaked with the evil of fallen man. God's new creation will not just be a renovation and renewal as seen in the Millennium but an entirely new heaven and new earth. Science says that matter cannot be created or destroyed but God does both as seen here and in Genesis 1.
"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life." What a scary and awe-filled scene like the one Daniel describes in his vision (Dan. 7: 9-10). It seems that all unsaved people from Cain to the last rebel we see in the Millennium are all together standing before the Lord Jesus ready to be judged based on their works (and books were opened) and sentenced by the Judge of all. Scripture says no one is righteous, no one keeps the law and no one is saved by works of righteousness (e.g., See Rom. 3-4) because even our best deeds are as filthy rags [menstrual rags] compared to the pure white perfect righteousness of God (Isa. 64:6). The righteousness that God requires for a person to be saved is the perfect righteousness a righteous God is required to require. (Matt. 5:48) Thus the only way to be saved is by grace (God's undeserved forgiveness and favor) through faith (in what God in Christ did for us on the cross when He took the punishment for all of our sins and credited us with His perfect righteousness), and not by works (Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Cor. 5:21)."
http://www.kenboa.org/text_resources/teaching_letters/lens_mens_fellowship/6640
* "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." It grieves me to realize there's the possibility that some of my acquaintances and friends who contribute to this forum may be among them. -Bob
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyReally? It grieves you? You mention it so often, it feels more like you enjoy saying it. I'm pretty sure you are sincere about believing there is some possibility that you will end up in the "Lake Of Fire" [that scares you], but far from coming across as a guy who is "grieving" for anyone, you instead come across as someone who gets some sort of self-boosting power trip out of talking about people "suffering excruciatingly for eternity". Your beliefs may be in earnest, but saying stuff like "It grieves me" sounds bogus.
It grieves me to realize there's the possibility that some of my acquaintances and friends who contribute to this forum may be among them [who will be thrown into the lake of fire].
Originally posted by Grampy BobbySo you've spent at least 4 day researching since I challenged you. In what must be your exhaustive searching, which sources have you considered that disagree with your viewpoint?
Past few days I've searched for biblical leeway but have found only confirmation....I'll continue searching. -Bob
Originally posted by divegeester"Past few days I've searched for biblical leeway but have found only confirmation. Annihilation of unbelievers is not part of God's Plan. "The second death" and the "lake of fire" are identical terms." Rev 20:14 I'll continue searching. -Bob"
So you've spent at least 4 day researching since I challenged you. In what must be your exhaustive searching, which sources have you considered that disagree with your viewpoint?
- Joined
- 02 Feb 06
- Moves
- 123634
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyIt fascinates me that Christians pin so much of their beliefs on a book (Revelations) of such dubious origin. Some guy named John (nobody is really sure who this person is) on the island of Patmos has "visions" (or perhaps hallucinations) and hundreds of years later it was decided that this should be added to the bible and yet Christians expect others to take this seriously. Brilliant.
"Past few days I've searched for biblical leeway but have found only confirmation. Annihilation of unbelievers is not part of God's Plan. "The second death" and the "lake of fire" are identical terms." Rev 20:14 I'll continue searching. -Bob"
Originally posted by UllrYes. It is fascinating.
It fascinates me that Christians pin so much of their beliefs on a book (Revelations) of such dubious origin. Some guy named John (nobody is really sure who this person is) on the island of Patmos has "visions" (or perhaps hallucinations) and hundreds of years later it was decided that this should be added to the bible and yet Christians expect others to take this seriously. Brilliant.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyDid you review and sources that disagree with your viewpoint. If so which ones?
"Past few days I've searched for biblical leeway but have found only confirmation. Annihilation of unbelievers is not part of God's Plan. "The second death" and the "lake of fire" are identical terms." Rev 20:14 I'll continue searching. -Bob"