1. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    15 Jan '07 20:43
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Surely any government that tries to protect its citizens by restraining, dissuading or punishing people that wish to do (or actually do) violence against them is no less "enslaving" such people to keep the helpless alive.
    Surely the pope doesn't require a $200,000 SUV.
  2. Donationkirksey957
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    15 Jan '07 20:58
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    [b]When I pay my lighting bill, it is after taxes are taken out of my wages. So, I may earn 100 dollars a week, but I take home 75 dollars (say), of which 15 dollars may go to my lighting bill, 10 to my water, 10 to my gas, 5 to food, and 15 to my mortgage. This leaves me 10 dollars.

    When the priest's ...[text shortened]... em by their respective congregations.

    Then again, maybe things are different in the US.
    No, I don't think this is the standard. If they don't pay their own utility bill, the lights get turned off just like everyone else, inspite of "let there be light."
  3. Standard memberNemesio
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    15 Jan '07 21:14
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Isn't that true of Protestant pastors as well? Every Protestant minister I've ever known (and I'll admit there aren't that many of them) has had housing, utilities and even their kids' education paid for them by their respective congregations.
    Well, having had a rather wide exposure to US Protestant pastors,
    I've seen some (but not most) get stipends for living expenses.
    That stipend is indeed pre-tax and negotiated as part of their salary
    structure. And they can use it for paying part of a mortgage of a
    large house or the whole mortgage and utilities of a small house.
    (They cannot use it for discretionary spending or even for their kids'
    educations.) They also keep milage for their cars when used for
    business reasons and get reimbursed by the mile (but not when they
    go to the theatre, for example). But they pay for the car themselves.
    They do not get cooks or housecleaning help, unless they pay for it
    out of their salaries, of course.

    In other words, their jobs have some fringe benefits, but they are
    responsible for the appropriate management of those benefits (just
    like I have to supervise the use of my continuing education budget).
    The average Protestant minister certainly doesn't have 15k-18k worth
    of discretionary spending to toss around (of course, Saint Thomas on
    Fifth Avenue in NYC is going to have a different pay scale than Saint
    Rumwold of the Shoals in East Ireland).

    But, as I said, this is negotiated by the congregation. It is the
    congregation that decides whether they wish to support a stipend and,
    if so, how much. Similarly, they define the position as part-time or
    full-time and what the duties are. A Roman Catholic priest (and I've
    known a lot of them) has no such duties. In a parish I know, there is
    a pastor and a curate, one of which makes regular runs to the hospital,
    makes calls to people, hears confessions on demand, and is basically
    on call 24 hours a day; the other priest barely puts in 10 hours a week
    beyond his required Sunday Mass schedule, never visits the sick, only
    hears confession when they are scheduled (two half-hour periods a week),
    and avoids contact with anything but the television if he can help it.
    He is also 10 years younger and this has been his practice for over
    30 years in the priesthood.

    Both get the same salary, same benefits, same personal treatment.
    Such a thing would never be tolerated in a Protestant church but the
    RCs are obligated to tolerate it.

    I wish I could say that this neglectful priest was an utter rarity, and
    while it isn't rampant, it isn't isolated either. That is, the congregation
    has neither a say in how their pastor ought to act nor protection from
    a pastor who decides he doesn't want to do anything.

    Nemesio
  4. Felicific Forest
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    15 Jan '07 22:141 edit
    how much does your local spiritual leader earn?

    .... our local spiritual leader ? Now isn't that our beloved Captain Reverend Kirk ?
  5. Standard memberAThousandYoung
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    15 Jan '07 22:25
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    I know several and that is not true of any of them.
    How did they pay their bills then?
  6. Donationkirksey957
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    15 Jan '07 22:34
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    how much does your local spiritual leader earn?

    .... our local spiritual leader ? Now isn't that our beloved Captain Reverend Kirk ?
    Take a guess. How much do you think I'm worth?
  7. Standard memberAThousandYoung
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    15 Jan '07 22:38
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Take a guess. How much do you think I'm worth?
    $1.50
  8. Donationkirksey957
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    15 Jan '07 22:39
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    $1.50
    I'm guessing Ivanhoe woud say that is too high for me.
  9. Felicific Forest
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    15 Jan '07 23:231 edit
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    I'm guessing Ivanhoe woud say that is too high for me.
    I wonder why you're always asking for it, Kirk ? ... did I say asking ? .... you're begging for it .... beggin' I tells ya !

    Now listen, Kirk. You're priceless to our cosy little on-line community ... you know that, Kirk .... simply priceless !
  10. Donationkirksey957
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    16 Jan '07 00:20
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    I wonder why you're always asking for it, Kirk ? ... did I say asking ? .... you're begging for it .... beggin' I tells ya !

    Now listen, Kirk. You're priceless to our cosy little on-line community ... you know that, Kirk .... simply priceless !
    Maybe I missed something. Were you not asking how much I was making?
  11. Felicific Forest
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    16 Jan '07 05:12
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Maybe I missed something. Were you not asking how much I was making?
    No.
  12. London
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    16 Jan '07 09:03
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    No. My view of the world is as wide as the sky. Yours is as narrow as your catechism.
    Nice slogan but apparently in your "wide" view of the world anyone who is too helpless to keep themselves alive deserves to die.
  13. London
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    16 Jan '07 09:03
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Surely the pope doesn't require a $200,000 SUV.
    Surely you can try answering the question.
  14. London
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    16 Jan '07 09:04
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    No, I don't think this is the standard. If they don't pay their own utility bill, the lights get turned off just like everyone else, inspite of "let there be light."
    As I was telling Scribbles before he started talking to himself, the world is a big place. Maybe the experience of US Protestant pastors differs quite a bit from the worldwide experience.
  15. London
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    16 Jan '07 09:10
    Originally posted by Nemesio
    Well, having had a rather wide exposure to US Protestant pastors,
    I've seen some (but not most) get stipends for living expenses.
    That stipend is indeed pre-tax and negotiated as part of their salary
    structure. And they can use it for paying part of a mortgage of a
    large house or the whole mortgage and utilities of a small house.
    (They cannot ...[text shortened]... act nor protection from
    a pastor who decides he doesn't want to do anything.

    Nemesio
    I wish I could say that this neglectful priest was an utter rarity, and
    while it isn't rampant, it isn't isolated either. That is, the congregation
    has neither a say in how their pastor ought to act nor protection from
    a pastor who decides he doesn't want to do anything.


    The congregation doesn't get to veto him off, sure. That's not the same thing as 'not having a say'. There are many avenues of action open to laity.

    Further, in my experience of Catholic priests (since the shoe is on the other foot now), I would say that the kind of priest you've described is indeed an utter rarity. I've known maybe one priest of that type my entire life.
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