13 Dec 13
Originally posted by Suzianne
Plenty of people believe in God anyways.
I have wonder about many kinds of human behavior. I find God to be interesting because it is something beyond ourselves. Why do some need it and others don't?
Of course, since I do believe, that tends to color my beliefs, but there are still plenty who are doing interesting work on the subject despite which w ...[text shortened]... this week if they wear their 'lucky jersey'. If it works for them, who am I to say it's wrong?
And the world is full of things people believe in despite a lack of evidence. A lack of evidence doesn't speak much as to its likelihood. Especially God, since I don't believe there can *be* any proof of God, no matter how much we may wish it, perhaps because we wish it. (Meaning I believe the ones most in need of proof will never get that proof, simply because they're in an unrepentant state.)Woe unto ye if you arrive at the Pearly Gates and find that it's Odin and Zeus who were the winning bets! That aside, I find it a curious attitude that you equate skepticism of your particular household god with an unrepentant state. Actually I suspect that your reasoning there is circular: part and parcel of "repenting" in the Christian sense is to accept God. I don't believe in God because I'm unrepentant, and I'm unrepentant because I don't believe in God.
Or, if you're using strictly the dictionary definition of what it means to repent, which is to "feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing," then you're saying I and all other disbelievers in Jehovah are incapable of remorse, which seems absurd. Your only escape here is to conjure up a custom-made and nonstandard definition of repent, it seems to me. I'm not offended, merely amused.
As to what people believe (or don't believe), I don't find any of it so 'difficult to accept'. People play the lottery every week, despite the odds being astronomical. People think their NFL team will win this week if they wear their 'lucky jersey'. If it works for them, who am I to say it's wrong?People actually do win the lottery, however long the odds. And as I understand it (I never play the lottery myself), there is a sense of fun just playing the game. And you don't have to hit the jackpot to get money back. There's a reasonable chance of winning ten or twenty bucks.
Playing the Christian Salvation Game, in contrast, requires substantially more than the price of a lottery ticket. You have to give yourself wholly over to it, without any evidence that anybody has ever "won." Most people play the game because they're conditioned to since early childhood. Others play as kids, opt out as young adults, and then return "reborn" for another round because they failed to find a fulfilling life for themselves (or are overwhelmed by a fear of death). But I rather doubt the vast majority of self-styled Christians really take the game to heart. They go through the motions, but the state of the world makes clear that they don't practice what Christ preached. Do they really believe God is watching them? Even when they cheat, steal, hurt and hoard?
I find it difficult to believe that most really believe. You probably believe, because you've evidently put serious thought into it. But the dumb bitch who cuts people off on the highway in her Cadillac Escalade with the Ichthus car magnet on it? Doubtful.
13 Dec 13
Originally posted by SuzianneBut he does do it multiple times in the bible. So if you hear voices in your head that you truly believe to be your god telling you to kill, how do you know they are wrong? He has definitely done it before.
Well, in this particular case, it's easy. God cannot sin. To convince someone to kill someone is sinful. Ergo, God wouldn't do it. Therefore, using faith to explain 'voices in your head' (especially those advocating sinful behavior) is NOT real faith. Perhaps I should have just said "It's not faith", and left off the qualifier "real". I added i ...[text shortened]... . I was saying that is not 'real faith'. Oh well, nice try at not being misunderstood, I guess.
13 Dec 13
Originally posted by LemonJelloExplain what, exactly?
Feel free to explain it to us. While you're at it, explain the context within your literal interpretatin of the OT for the various places where He sanctions mass killing and genocide; and how that is all supposed to square with Suzianne's comments.
That context might have something to do with content?
Is that concept so foreign to you that you
just.
can't.
imagine.
the scenarios described in the Bible as being totally appropriate for the time involved?
I find such short-sighted thinking decidedly barbaric.
13 Dec 13
Originally posted by FreakyKBHSuzianne said -
Explain what, exactly?
That context might have something to do with content?
Is that concept so foreign to you that you
just.
can't.
imagine.
the scenarios described in the Bible as being totally appropriate for the time involved?
I find such short-sighted thinking decidedly barbaric.
'God cannot sin. To convince someone to kill someone is sinful. Ergo, God wouldn't do it.'
Yet God does exactly this in the Bible.
13 Dec 13
Originally posted by SuzianneOK then, I think we use the specific meaning of the word 'reject' that we do because it is clear that is the meaning usually intended by theists when they ask why we reject god. I'm sure you are aware of that so I am wondering why you are so obsessed with the fact that we like to clarify our position.I personally really welcome your presence here as reasoned and reasonable theist. I have enjoyed the thread although I have only read it today and not had the time to take part.This seems high praise, indeed. Thanks.[quote]If you think about your attitude to those gods, I think you will understand our position about yours. Do you reject the ...[text shortened]... s may have once said this, or something, to explain why only atheists take this position.
Penguin
13 Dec 13
Originally posted by SuzianneThough I haven't read this entire thread, I'm unclear where this is coming from. I and every atheist I know in real life reject Jehovah for the same reason we reject Zeus, Apollo, and Quetzalcoatl: No evidence that they exist. Simple as that.
Does that help at all?[/quote]Yes. No, really, I do get that, and I was even expecting someone to mention this. The actual answers would be yes, I would reject these gods AND any argument for them because I don't believe they exist. No semantic games like, "I can't possibly reject them because I don't believe they exist." Well, I DO reject ...[text shortened]... s may have once said this, or something, to explain why only atheists take this position.
Speaking for myself, my primary reason for not even having faith in Jehovah is because of the sheer implausibility that reality had its beginnings with a highly complex, highly intelligent consciousness which in turn gave rise to less impressive things like hydrogen clouds and humans. That is, to explain the beginnings of physics, which is mindless and simple, by invoking an omnipotent and self-aware superbeing (which for its part is not required to have a beginning) just seems to be the height of absurdity.
13 Dec 13
But the phraseology you used
[I]"If there are polytheistic societies out there, I don't know of them" [/I]
Would normally be read in exactly the way PK read it, and several others have also interpreted it in the same way. When the only medium we have to communicate is text on a screen, we must take extra care not to be ambiguous. I think PK is the one who should be cut some slack here.
14 Dec 13
1 edit
Originally posted by Proper KnobOkay, now this is good. Now you're thinking.
God told Abraham to kill his son Isaac. Genesis 22:1-2
Or does that not count?
God talked with Abraham on many occasions prior to this.
1. Gen. 12:1 - God tells Abraham to gather his family and his stuff and head out "unto the land that I will show thee." ... "And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came."
1a. At this time, God also told Abraham "And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and be thou a blessing." (Gen. 12:2)
2. "And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Shechem, unto the terebinth of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land. And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said: 'Unto thy seed will I give this land'; and he builded there an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him." (Gen. 12:6-7) More of God's promises to Abraham.
3. Gen. 13:14-17 "And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him: 'Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art, northward and southward and eastward and westward; for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth; so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for unto thee will I give it.' More of God's promises to Abraham.
4. Gen. 15, more of God's promises to Abraham. Also, predictions about the descendants of Abraham, all of which were to come true, even a foreshadowing of the Babylonian Exile.
5. Gen. 16. Here begins the entire story of how God favored Abraham with an heir, who was to be called Isaac, even though Sarah was well past child-bearing age. Also the story of Hagar and Ishmael.
6. Gen. 17. Continuation of the Isaac story, much text regarding God's promises to Abraham, and establishing covenant between God and Isaac's descendants. Establishment of the rite of circumcision, as a symbol of God's covenant with Abraham.
7. Gen 18. Much discussion between Abraham and God concerning the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah.
8. Gen. 20. The story of Abimelech, during which, "And Abraham prayed unto God; and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maid-servants; and they bore children." Direct evidence to Abraham that God hears him and favors him.
9. Gen. 21. The birth of Isaac, the rest of the Abimelech story, and the banishment of Hagar and Ishmael.
10. Gen. 22. The story of Abraham's intended sacrifice of his son Isaac to God, at God's request. His heir, the one for which God had made a covenant with Abraham for all Isaac's descendants. Abraham had every reason to trust in God. God had been fulfilling promises made to Abraham for lo, on thirty to forty years now. Abraham had faith in the Lord that He would not bring harm to him or his descendants, Abraham was blessed of God, by God's own word.
In no way can this be compared to just some random guy claiming God told him to take his weapons to a bell tower and kill as many people as he could. Those of faith know this is just not possible. God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son to him on a makeshift altar, it's true. But God also sent an angel of the Lord to stay Abraham's hand, and the sacrifice was stopped. And the entire point of the story is to show Abraham's faith in God.
14 Dec 13
Originally posted by SuzianneOkay, now this is good. Now you're thinking.
Okay, now this is good. Now you're thinking.
God talked with Abraham on many occasions prior to this.
1. Gen. 12:1 - God tells Abraham to gather his family and his stuff and head out "unto the land that I will show thee." ... "And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that ...[text shortened]... the sacrifice was stopped. And the entire point of the story is to show Abraham's faith in God.
LOL. Are you Galveston in disguise?
Okay. How does 1 Samuel 15:3 fit into the God not convincing people to kill scenario?
14 Dec 13
Originally posted by SuzianneInteresting that you think the story in Genesis 22 is about 'faith' when the exact word used is 'fear'.
Okay, now this is good. Now you're thinking.
God talked with Abraham on many occasions prior to this.
1. Gen. 12:1 - God tells Abraham to gather his family and his stuff and head out "unto the land that I will show thee." ... "And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that ...[text shortened]... the sacrifice was stopped. And the entire point of the story is to show Abraham's faith in God.
14 Dec 13
1 edit
Originally posted by googlefudgeI think you are totally correct. I don't "believe" god exists, I can only explain my position as being enabled through faith to accept that god is there.
It's another topic.
Look, I can choose whether or not I worship something, worshipping is
something I consciously do or do not do.
Belief on the other hand, isn't something that can simply be chosen.
I can't just will myself to believe the Earth is flat.
I can't just will myself to think I can fly.
And I can't just will myself to believe ...[text shortened]... f isn't a simple choice.
And saying that it is belittles it for believers and atheists alike.
Didn't Jesus say "you say you believe in god, even the demons believe..."
Belief is something that stems from physical (temporal) evidence. It is linked to lemon jello's thread in that belief as you are explaining it, comes from knowing, through seeing or touching.
The problem is the multi meaning/interpretation of the word belief.
14 Dec 13
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by Proper Knob
"So how does one discern between 'Real Faith' and, I guess, 'Fake Faith'?"
Faith: "Noun. Strong belief or trust in someone or something." Merriam-Webster; "Complete trust or confidence in someone or something." Oxford Dictionaries; "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1; "And the Lord said, If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed..." Luke 17:6 (Little more than none at all)
Even at our best, none of us can ever earn or deserve a relationship with God. Only the object of faith, Jesus Christ, has merit. An individual's faith in the person and work of Christ (His substitutionary spiritual death or separation from the Father at the crucifixion) makes personal salvation possible. What is that "faith"? Faith is simply your decision to believe (accept, receive) the message of Christ as true. Faith alone in Christ alone is salvation. Attitude toward Christ is the only issue.
Mechanics: 1) At a point in time, an unbeliever expresses personal interest in the Message of Christ; 2) God the Holy Spirit acts in place of the human spirit to make the spiritual phenomena of the Gospel (Good News of the completed work of the Risen Christ) understandable to that unbeliever; 3) If he or she then responds to God the Father by simply forming words in his or her own mind: Father, I believe in Christ, the Holy Spirit immediately makes that faith effective for salvation.
1 Corinthians 2:14 explains this spiritual phenomena: "But a natural man [unbeliever] does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them [the Gospel and Bible Doctrine] because they are spiritually discerned [appraised from the human spirit, which is acquired at the moment of regeneration].
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe in the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36 The phrase "Real Faith and Fake Faith" represents a distinction without a difference. -Bob (Pg 6)
14 Dec 13
Originally posted by Soothfast
[quote]And the world is full of things people believe in despite a lack of evidence. A lack of evidence doesn't speak much as to its likelihood. Especially God, since I don't believe there can *be* any proof of God, no matter how much we may wish it, perhaps because we wish it. (Meaning I believe the ones most in need of proof will never get that proof, ...[text shortened]... people off on the highway in her Cadillac Escalade with the Ichthus car magnet on it? Doubtful.
Woe unto ye if you arrive at the Pearly Gates and find that it's Odin and Zeus who were the winning bets!Well, if that happened, I would be very surprised, since Odin and Zeus are from separate mythologies. I suppose I'd have to ask if I was in Valhalla, Elysium or Hades, and go from there.
That aside, I find it a curious attitude that you equate skepticism of your particular household god with an unrepentant state. Actually I suspect that your reasoning there is circular: part and parcel of "repenting" in the Christian sense is to accept God. I don't believe in God because I'm unrepentant, and I'm unrepentant because I don't believe in God.Well, yeah, since repentance is a complete change of direction toward God, skepticism or unbelief is not repentance. Your actual reasons for not believing in God is your business, but yes, you're unrepentant because you don't believe in God. My point was that this is why people do not get the proof they wish for, because they are unrepentant.
People actually do win the lottery, however long the odds. And as I understand it (I never play the lottery myself), there is a sense of fun just playing the game. And you don't have to hit the jackpot to get money back. There's a reasonable chance of winning ten or twenty bucks.Sure, of course. But the takeaway here is that people play the lottery because they expect to (or believe they'll) win. And yes, people do win every week. But the odds are astronomical for any one person. Like I said though, I'm not going to take that away from people. They can believe what they want. I'm just saying, people believe any number of strange things.
Playing the Christian Salvation Game, in contrast, requires substantially more than the price of a lottery ticket. You have to give yourself wholly over to it, without any evidence that anybody has ever "won." Most people play the game because they're conditioned to since early childhood. Others play as kids, opt out as young adults, and then return "reborn" for another round because they failed to find a fulfilling life for themselves (or are overwhelmed by a fear of death). But I rather doubt the vast majority of self-styled Christians really take the game to heart. They go through the motions, but the state of the world makes clear that they don't practice what Christ preached. Do they really believe God is watching them? Even when they cheat, steal, hurt and hoard?Since I am a Christian, I have to believe people make the commitment because they believe it. Because they find it fills the hole in their lives. Because they feel it is the right thing to do, the correct path they should take. Because they love God. As you say, though, the level of commitment varies. A lot of threads here have been created on this topic. It's also the source of a lot of 'after-church' discussion among Christians. But yes, I do see what you're saying every day. There are some who are just 'going through the motions'. These people will be sifted out come judgement day. These are the ones of whom Christ said he will say, "I never knew you." The ones who say "Lord, Lord" with their mouth yet you cannot see their good fruit (by which we should know them) on a day-to-day basis.
I find it difficult to believe that most really believe. You probably believe, because you've evidently put serious thought into it. But the dumb bitch who cuts people off on the highway in her Cadillac Escalade with the Ichthus car magnet on it? Doubtful.
Originally posted by PenguinWe keep coming back to the meaning of "kill", for example in the Ten Commandments, the word used is more akin to "murder". It is the wanton taking of life. This is the sin. Not killing in warfare, nor state-sponsored killing. Most times in the Bible, when God tells people to kill, it is in warfare, the Hebrew people at war with their enemies. Whether Canaanites or the Amalekites, the Hebrew people were at war. This is not the 'wanton taking of life'.
But he does do it multiple times in the bible. So if you hear voices in your head that you truly believe to be your god telling you to kill, how do you know they are wrong? He has definitely done it before.
This is why 'voices in your head' 'telling you to kill' are not from God.