Humanism on trial......

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]One must search his/her heart and reach out to god, and God will instill the ability to believe.

What is that supposed to mean? Did you actually read through the thread I posted? Did you see the outcome of knightmeister's "experiment" directed toward myself and bbarr? Did you actually read any of our genuine concerns with such an experiment?[/b]

Yeah, I read your arguments, and no offense, but they are as a sieve in the waters of truth. Faith cannot be reasoned with logic. If it could, the shed blood of Jesus Christ would be for naught. I cannot argue with reason or 'humanistic-logic'. Jesus did it magnificently, but alas, I am not in His league. Have you ever read the New Testament, and if so, what do you think of Jesus' teachings, especially where salvation is concerned?

Originally posted by dystoniac
Yeah, I read your arguments, and no offense, but they are as a sieve in the waters of truth. Faith cannot be reasoned with logic. If it could, the shed blood of Jesus Christ would be for naught. I cannot argue with reason or 'humanistic-logic'. Jesus did it magnificently, but alas, I am not in His league. Have you ever read the New Testament, and if so, what do you think of Jesus' teachings, especially where salvation is concerned?

Have you ever read the New Testament, and if so, what do you think of Jesus' teachings, especially where salvation is concerned?

Sure, I have read the NT. I do not consider it to be a text to be taken very seriously as it concerns ethics since it doesn't actually argue for any of its normative claims or prescriptions. As a teacher of parables and the like, I would say Jesus (or whatever is commonly attributed to Jesus) is worth a read (although for my money I would go with what is attributed to other notable teachers). As for salvation, I think the Christian notion of 'salvation' is incredibly silly and childish. I think doting on the Christian notion of salvation is actually counteractive toward our living well for at least two reasons: 1. it reinforces and gives new life to a chief source of existential conflict and suffering: illusions of permanence and eternal life and 2. I find it degrading toward human nature since it often calls for one to focus so much reflective energy on what are putatively lowborn human characteristics (a point which is actually quite relevant to knightmeister's intent in starting this thread). Whereas you Christians seem to love ritualized self-loathing, I think other approaches are much more conducive to both our living well and our bringing about meaningful personal transformations.

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]Have you ever read the New Testament, and if so, what do you think of Jesus' teachings, especially where salvation is concerned?

Sure, I have read the NT. I do not consider it to be a text to be taken very seriously as it concerns ethics since it doesn't actually argue for any of its normative claims or prescriptions. As a teacher of parables ...[text shortened]... nducive to both our living well and our bringing about meaningful personal transformations.[/b]

OK, since you are entrenched in your secular-progressivness, I can't get through to you, so good luck in finding the true meaning of life. Worship Darwin, Niezche, et al...or simply yourself.

Originally posted by LemonJello
I didn't mean self-governance in that sense. I meant that autonomy is about self-governance in the sense that it is about acting from our practical identities. That is, when one acts autonomously one acts in line with considerations that have the support of her own reason, her own evaluative commitments and personal value system, etc., in the absence of ...[text shortened]... bey what are putatively divine commands. There's something very ugly about the whole thing.

I'm not offering you anything, pathetic or otherwise. I'm just not convined that your concept of "genuine personal freedom" exists anywhere in the world, that's all.

I agree with your earlier point about people not choosing to be an athiest. Atheism is a mind set or belief strategy that is arrived a by defaut, i.e. in the absence of another more convincing set of options. But that is not free will either is it, it is just a logical cognitive process that arrives at determined outcome.

Originally posted by dystoniac
OK, since you are entrenched in your secular-progressivness, I can't get through to you, so good luck in finding the true meaning of life. Worship Darwin, Niezche, et al...or simply yourself.

Were you hoping to win converts on the site?

Originally posted by dystoniac
OK, since you are entrenched in your secular-progressivness, I can't get through to you, so good luck in finding the true meaning of life. Worship Darwin, Niezche, et al...or simply yourself.

You can not get through to anyone who has thrown off the obfuscating veil of superstition and who is guided by the light of reason. For them, your dogmas are divisive, intellectually stultifying and life destroying.

Originally posted by rwingett
You can not get through to anyone who has thrown off the obfuscating veil of superstition and who is guided by the light of reason. For them, your dogmas are divisive, intellectually stultifying and life destroying.

the light of reason ???? i had to read this twice to make sure i was not dreaming. perhaps you may furnish the forum with some of these reasons so that we too may see the light, for as you and i well know, ol Nietzsche could formulate nothing better and descended into insanity because of it, and neither can you, so please, it is enough that you persist in such delusion without trying to convince others also. this has brought endless amusement to me, and if it were not so serious, laughter, this pretense of intellectual advancement and the application of human knowledge as some sort of solution, take a look around you for goodness sake!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the light of reason ???? i had to read this twice to make sure i was not dreaming. perhaps you may furnish the forum with some of these reasons so that we too may see the light, for as you and i well know, ol Nietzsche could formulate nothing better and descended into insanity because of it, and neither can you, so please, it is enough that you persi ...[text shortened]... plication of human knowledge as some sort of solution, take a look around you for goodness sake!

If we are in a perilous state it is because there are many who choose to live perpetually under the darkness of superstition. Theirs will forever be a blighted existence. Only the light of reason can lead us out of that darkness. The brighter its flame shines, the more we will be able to provide the means for our own collective salvation.

Originally posted by rwingett
If we are in a perilous state it is because there are many who choose to live perpetually under the darkness of superstition. Theirs will forever be a blighted existence. Only the light of reason can lead us out of that darkness. The brighter its flame shines, the more we will be able to provide the means for our own collective salvation.

A city set on a hill cannot be hid.

Neither do men light a lamp, and put it under the bushel, but on the stand; and it shineth unto all that are in the house.

Originally posted by no1marauder
A city set on a hill cannot be hid.

Neither do men light a lamp, and put it under the bushel, but on the stand; and it shineth unto all that are in the house.

Teach it, brother. Feel the light of reason within you. Cast out that darkness.

Originally posted by rwingett
If we are in a perilous state it is because there are many who choose to live perpetually under the darkness of superstition. Theirs will forever be a blighted existence. Only the light of reason can lead us out of that darkness. The brighter its flame shines, the more we will be able to provide the means for our own collective salvation.

really my friend? what is the destruction of the eco system based upon? is it perhaps due to superstition and ignorance or the application of science and technology without recourse to ethics? which country as Mr Blair pointed out is willing to sacrifice its economy for the sake of environment? why are little children and mothers being carried to their death in the Gazza strip? is it because of ignorance and superstition or the application of science and technology for destructive means? it is the ultimate irony that in the face of such huge advancements in medical science human reasoning allows for such inhumane acts. is there not enough food for the whole populace of the entire globe, yet one side is dying because it eats too much and the other because it cannot eat enough, is this the result of superstition and ignorance or mismanagement of the earths resources because of warped human reasoning?

the evidence has been gathered, the issues settled, humanity is incapable of living independently from God, for they were neither created for this purpose nor capable of it. the present state of affairs is a very real self incriminating reminder of this fact, therefore, make your recantation and free yourself from the superstition and ignorance of human reasoning, while such delusion still persists.

the solution, which you and that bad ol putty cat no1 muppethead cannot deny is written in scripture, are we to blame if you cannot grasp and reason on its application?

You must love your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this: You must love your neighbor as yourself.

applying this simple yet profound statement would solve not only the ills on an individual basis but humanity as a whole, yet i have yet to read anything superior anywhere else within the realm of human reasoning.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
really my friend? what is the destruction of the eco system based upon? is it perhaps due to superstition and ignorance or the application of science and technology without recourse to ethics? which country as Mr Blair pointed out is willing to sacrifice its economy for the sake of environment? why are little children and mothers being carried to t ...[text shortened]... self from the superstition and ignorance of human reasoning, while such delusion still persists.

Little children were carried to their death very often in Palestine when some were living dependently on God in the Old Testament. What is going on in the Middle East right now isn't a very strong starting point to argue that Man needs to rely more on religion.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Little children were carried to their death very often in Palestine when some were living dependently on God in the Old Testament. What is going on in the Middle East right now isn't a very strong starting point to argue that Man needs to rely more on religion.

i will not be drawn into a discussion to justify the destruction of the ancient Canaanites nor the Israelite for that matter, these were not the direct consequence of human reasoning as is the present situation on the Gazza strip, for God did not make the bombs did he? God did not fire the rockets, did he? God did not decide to make tanks, did he? the solution is in the teachings of the Christ, for you cannot deny, although i would like to see you try, that if they were applied there would be NO WAR, no little children being carried to hospital. so lets hear it, I have provided a solution, where is the light of human reasoning?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i will not be drawn into a discussion to justify the destruction of the ancient Canaanites nor the Israelite for that matter, these were not the direct consequence of human reasoning as is the present situation on the Gazza strip, for God did not make the bombs did he? God did not fire the rockets, did he?

Of course, you won't since you have no actual reasoning to refute my point. Absent the OT there wouldn't even be the situation in the Middle East right now. And the Monster God you believe in ordered slaughters of children far more fearful than what has been done recently in Gaza (if the OT is to be believed).

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
really my friend? what is the destruction of the eco system based upon? is it perhaps due to superstition and ignorance or the application of science and technology without recourse to ethics? which country as Mr Blair pointed out is willing to sacrifice its economy for the sake of environment? why are little children and mothers being carried to t ...[text shortened]... ole, yet i have yet to read anything superior anywhere else within the realm of human reasoning.

Here's a superior statement written over 500 years before Jesus:

No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path.
Buddha