Humans are egotistical when it comes to god.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
And your evidence?

Apples and oranges Scott, you cannot compare two different
events that have some similarities and assume you’re going to
get the same types of accurate results. As I pointed out to you
before by lengthening the distance between my eyes and text
changes the reliability of my being able to read. Simply being
able to read something a short distance away does not mean
I’ll be able to read it a great deal of distance away, simply being
able to measure in the here and now accurately does not mean
that same method will be as accurate over a great deal of time?
That points to just the assumptions you’re making about the
method, we then go on to make others assumptions when we
judge which methods are the more accurate that cannot be
based upon what we know to be true, but what we think is.
You can get consistency, but that could also mean your coming
to the wrong conclusion over and over, and you’d never know
it. So you are in the realm of faith!
Kelly

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I like to give examples of people who hold a particular viewpoint when I am debating. For example, Knightmeister believes time to not be a property of the universe, but something else. Does my using his name amount to persecution? If I am wrong in my statement, then he can always correct me, as can you.

I have a habit of calling out people that accuse me of saying things
I have never said, I think howardgee nailed me once where I did say
something and forgot about it, that was a hard one to get over. 🙁 I
will; however, if you want me to find examples for you? I don't
want to take the time, but will, if you don't believe me, and want me
to. I again have only used the word persecution in responce to you,
I did not say I was or felt I was being persecuted, I did say that from
time to time that some of the things directed at me I took personally.
You can get insulted and it not go to the level of being persecuted.
Kelly

Originally posted by Nemesio
So, you don't think there is any reason to think that things fall downwards on other planets,
that it is a matter of faith, since we've never dropped balls on other planets?

We have information about short-lived and moderate-lived isotopes which is complete and not
a matter of faith. The formula which defines decay rate is based on the same so ...[text shortened]... e testable evidence (i.e.,
not faith-based) available for your personal review?

Nemesio

The rates are the rates, what they mean may not be what you think!
The speed of light, you have been monitoring it to know if it changes
even now during our life time? Someone have that job? You can make
assumptions and they may be right, nothing wrong with assumptions,
but when you do you are pushing beliefs into the mix, sometimes it
is a minor thing other times not. The difference is what you are doing
with your beliefs, in your case your whole world view on the universe is
built upon some assumptions, you are defending by examples of
other things, the reason being, because you have to.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
What I have been saying is they have to be believed, they must
be taken upon faith; because, as anything new can change the
way we look at them, that is the way of science is it not? The way of
humans is that we accept upon faith that which we believe to be true
yet we can be wrong. I know enough to know that looking at some
thing in the short term doe term being true does not
mean that in the long term the same thing will remain true!
Kelly

The problem is faith is a ficle thing. Just like time man made.
Big bang is aproblem we have yet to solve because their isnt enough evidence either way, we can only go back so far in time and we dont yet understand the dynamiks of what we are trying so hard to figure out. The problem with science to day is that its build on old "truths".
But when we go in to the world quantum physiks it bogles at least my mind how litle we humans actully know. And what we know to day wouldnt even take up half on one single disc.

Originally posted by KellyJay
The rates are the rates, what they mean may not be what you think!
The speed of light, you have been monitoring it to know if it changes
even now during our life time? Someone have that job? You can make
assumptions and they may be right, nothing wrong with assumptions,
but when you do you are pushing beliefs into the mix, sometimes it
is a minor thing ...[text shortened]... s, you are defending by examples of
other things, the reason being, because you have to.
Kelly

So, it's only faith that makes you and me believe that gravity always made things fall downwards?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
So, it's only faith that makes you and me believe that gravity always made things fall downwards?

Nemesio

With the word 'always' being used, I'd say yes faith plays apart.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
With the word 'always' being used, I'd say yes faith plays apart.

So, you believe that there is no evidentiary value to anything?

Originally posted by Nemesio
So, you believe that there is no evidentiary value to anything?

Did not say that.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Did not say that.

So, you do believe that some things have evidentiary value. right?

Then faith has distinguishing levels of worthiness, right? Consider, you are a male today. Do
you feel that it is faith to believe that you will be a male tomorrow? Why do you feel that it
is a good thing to place 'faith' in such a thing?

Nemesio

Originally posted by KellyJay
Seeing how a great deal that goes on in living systems are all
interconnected, it would give me pause to alter anything not knowing
how it may affect other parts of the system. In our not so complex
programming by comparison altering a single variable may seem
minor until the affects on show themselves otherwise.
Kelly

The body just deletes telomeres, they don't serve any other purpose. They are not a "variable". We can completely delete telomeres and the only changes we see are those we expect, replication starts losing the ends off genes, which causes huge problems in whatever is knocked off. Halfway deleting them does nothing, just decreases the time until they get to the ends and are exhausted. We may not understand everything, but we understand telomeres, and we can recognize when sequences aren't being transcribed.

Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
The body just deletes telomeres, they don't serve any other purpose. They are not a "variable". We can completely delete telomeres and the only changes we see are those we expect, replication starts losing the ends off genes, which causes huge problems in whatever is knocked off. Halfway deleting them does nothing, just decreases the time until they ...[text shortened]... , but we understand telomeres, and we can recognize when sequences aren't being transcribed.

Telomeres are like the little plastic stuff at the end of your shoelace. It keeps it from unraveling, so when they are duplicated, everything gets duped between telomeres. It also acts a bit like a clock because every now and then, a bit of the telemere goes bye bye, eventually leading to poor reproduction of the gene and may be a cause of aging, among others. But that is straying a bit from the premise of the thread, don't you think? I still say humans are too egocentric to deserve the attention of a god, such a god would just include humans in the same box as the rest of life on earth, not placing them on the top of the heap. For one thing, such a god would know the next stage in evolution and whether it has a hand in it or not, would know humans are not the end of all evolutionary trends, nor the best.

Originally posted by Nemesio
So, you do believe that some things have evidentiary value. right?

Then faith has distinguishing levels of worthiness, right? Consider, you are a male today. Do
you feel that it is faith to believe that you will be a male tomorrow? Why do you feel that it
is a good thing to place 'faith' in such a thing?

Nemesio

If my actions depended upon such a thing, but they don't, I don't do
anything to be male I am, I don't do anything when I walk except
place my feet where I think it is safe, but that can get me into trouble.
If someone is confused on if they are male or not, their issues run
deep and wide. I still accept your point, there are levels yes some
things require more than others, and some may not require as much,
but how important they are will depend on what we are building on top
of them.
Kelly

Originally posted by sonhouse
Telomeres are like the little plastic stuff at the end of your shoelace. It keeps it from unraveling, so when they are duplicated, everything gets duped between telomeres. It also acts a bit like a clock because every now and then, a bit of the telemere goes bye bye, eventually leading to poor reproduction of the gene and may be a cause of aging, among othe ...[text shortened]... hand in it or not, would know humans are not the end of all evolutionary trends, nor the best.

1. The plastic things on the ends of shoes are called aglets, just fyi.
2. I hate the telomere/aglet analogy although it is far to famous. They prevent the ends of chromosomes from being degraded by various enzymes and provide some protection against other damage to the end of the strand (where it is vunerable), and they keep chromosome ends from getting stuck together or from having other bits of DNA in the cell stuck to them. But I think people overdo the aglet metaphor.
3. A bit of telomere isn't lost "every now and then", every time a cell which does not express telomerase, which I was leaving out of this for simplicity, replicates it's chromosomes, some of the DNA on the ends is lost, this is the important function of telomeres in aging and is what I was talking about.
4. What do you even mean "everything gets duped between the telomeres"?
5.Genes do not all have telomeres on the ends, chromosomes do.
6.Loss of telomeres doesn't lead to "poor reproduction", it leads to outright information loss, genetic material is "deleted" from the ends from one copy of the chromosome to the next. This doesn't poorly reproduce, it isn't copied at all because it isn't there anymore. THIS IS VERY BAD, in fact it is fatal to the cell.
7. I wasn't trying to turn it into a discussion of telomeres, but it was a piece of evidence offered.
8.Evolution has no goals, there isn't a 'next stage', just a future and a past. True we aren't the end of all evolutionary processes, but anything that comes after us will not neccesarily be better or worse. There is no long term plan or goal to evolution, it is just about sex and babies, who can have the most and have them survive.
9.God created man in his image, or so I am told. Maybe God is too egocentric to care about other animals, that is why they aren't allowed in heaven.

Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
1. The plastic things on the ends of shoes are called aglets, just fyi.
2. I hate the telomere/aglet analogy although it is far to famous. They prevent the ends of chromosomes from being degraded by various enzymes and provide some protection against other damage to the end of the strand (where it is vunerable), and they keep chromosome ends f ...[text shortened]... tric to care about other animals, that is why they aren't allowed in heaven.

Hey thanks for that post, Aglets. Ok, I'll remember that. I always have a problem with the 'god created man in his, notice the male denominative there, image'. Now why would a god look like a man in the first place. Pretty suspicious stuff right there. It couldn't be oh, Anthropomorphism in action could it? NAH, not OUR god. So what about creatures on other planets, did this god create THEM in 'his' image? Like suppose there is a race of three legged giraffe sized dudes tripartioned, three eyes, three strands of dna instead of two, so this god says, look, I created your god in the image of these dudes on a planet 2 billion light years away and 3 million years in your future but hey, worship it anyway.

Originally posted by KellyJay
If my actions depended upon such a thing, but they don't, I don't do
anything to be male I am, I don't do anything when I walk except
place my feet where I think it is safe, but that can get me into trouble.
If someone is confused on if they are male or not, their issues run
deep and wide. I still accept your point, there are levels yes some
things req ...[text shortened]... much,
but how important they are will depend on what we are building on top
of them.
Kelly

Do you consider it to be 'faith' to believe that you are going to be a
male tomorrow? Many of the actions you engage in hinge on this
'belief,' such as whether it is moral to have sexual relations with a
woman to whom you are married or which bathroom you use at a
restaurant.

Is it 'faith' that you will have a johnson the next time you go to the can?

Nemesio