Humans: Good or Evil?

Originally posted by dj2becker
OK. You can make the substitution for me if you can show me a watch that doesn't have a watch maker.

A watch can be made by a team of workers, or be run off an assembly line. Are you willing to entertain the notion that the universe was made by a team of gods, or that it is perhaps a copy of another made in some inconceivable factory? That's how far the watchmaker analogy gets you.

My question to you is relevant whether you use "big bang" or "creation".

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
A watch can be made by a team of workers, or be run off an assembly line. Are you willing to entertain the notion that the universe was made by a team of gods, or that it is perhaps a copy of another made in some inconceivable factory? That's how far the watchmaker analogy gets you.

My question to you is relevant whether you use "big bang" or "creation".

The point you seem to miss is that a watchmaker or watchmakers "create" a watch using intelligent design. They don't light a match and "bang" you have a watch. That is the point I am arguing from. The number of watchmakers needed is totally a different debate.

Originally posted by dj2becker
The point you seem to miss is that a watchmaker or watchmakers "create" a watch using intelligent design. They don't light a match and "bang" you have a watch. That is the point I am arguing from. The number of watchmakers needed is totally a different debate.

The watchmaker analogy makes the universe rather mechanical and inorganic, doesn’t it? How would you argue from a (wild) rose? For a “rose-maker?” Some people have looked at the rose and said, “Ah, Mother Earth/giving birth/from a tiny seed/to a flower indeed.” (Okay, sorry for the puerile verse!)

Clear your mind, observe nature, and see what she tells you (hints and clues), rather than assuming your conclusion and then looking for naturalistic evidence to back them up. I’m not saying you won’t come to the same conclusions—but your posts do make it seem that you’re doing it the other way ‘round. Some of the brightest minds in the world have tried to come up with insurmountable “proofs” of God and failed—and a lot of people on here have read them, and their refutations.

Trying to be a friend here. I don’t pretend to have all the answers, nor do I any longer feel any need to have all the answers. If nothing else—and if it enhances the flourishing of your life—try just letting faith be faith in the face of de facto evidentiary uncertainty. If there was no uncertainty, there would be no “risk of faith.”

Originally posted by dj2becker
The point you seem to miss is that a watchmaker or watchmakers "create" a watch using intelligent design. They don't light a match and "bang" you have a watch. That is the point I am arguing from. The number of watchmakers needed is totally a different debate.

OK, you're saying a watch can't create itself. That's fair enough. The universe differs from a watch in a number of respects, but let that pass...

The oldest clock known is the sun, which is a star. Stars are still being born in the universe. Does this process occur spontaneously, or is some sort of midwife required?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
OK, you're saying a watch can't create itself. That's fair enough. The universe differs from a watch in a number of respects, but let that pass...

The oldest clock known is the sun, which is a star. Stars are still being born in the universe. Does this process occur spontaneously, or is some sort of midwife required?

The oldest clock known is the sun

How do you know this?

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]The oldest clock known is the sun

How do you know this?

[/b]

In the following set (all known watches + the sun)
the sun is the oldest item, given that its existence precedes all these other watches. For people knew the sun before they knew of watches.

Perhaps hidden in the earth, or the moon, or in the sun itself, there is a watch that is older than the sun, but that watch is not yet known.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
In the following set (all known watches + the sun)
the sun is the oldest item, given that its existence precedes all these other watches. For people knew the sun before they knew of watches.

Perhaps hidden in the earth, or the moon, or in the sun itself, there is a watch that is older than the sun, but that watch is not yet known.

My grandfather clock is much older than the mountains. The mountains are older than the sun 😀

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
In the following set (all known watches + the sun)
the sun is the oldest item, given that its existence precedes all these other watches. For people knew the sun before they knew of watches.

Perhaps hidden in the earth, or the mo ...[text shortened]... older than the sun, but that watch is not yet known.

lol, that brings up a couple of interesting questions:

If God made the Sun ,the first watch, and man made a mechanical watch:
Which keeps better time?
Who's the better watchmaker, God or man?

Originally posted by dj2becker
My grandfather clock is much older than the mountains. The mountains are older than the sun 😀

Ah, the lad has a sense of humor! I'm usually too much a "serious sack" on here--but I think I might steal that one...

Originally posted by dj2becker
My grandfather clock is much older than the mountains. The mountains are older than the sun 😀

That's ridiculous.

Originally posted by frogstomp
lol, that brings up a couple of interesting questions:

If God made the Sun ,the first watch, and man made a mechanical clock:
Which keeps better time?
Who's the better watchmaker, God or man?

I've been up too long: I thought you wrote "matchmaker!" 🙂

Originally posted by vistesd
I've been up too long: I thought you wrote "matchmaker!" 🙂

ok i put an edit on it to make it look like I did,,,I know what lack of sleep can do to reading comprehension.

Originally posted by dj2becker
My grandfather clock is much older than the mountains. The mountains are older than the sun 😀

I have to admit that I just don't understand.

Originally posted by vistesd
I've been up too long: I thought you wrote "matchmaker!" 🙂

Matchmaker, Matchmaker. make me a match
I'll be on time with my new man made watch
I know it don't rhyme , So a poem I did botch
Some things obscure , are as plain as a nose.
And just as an orange isn't a rose
It didn't rhyme because it was just prose

Originally posted by frogstomp
That's ridiculous.

You're clearly not an antique dealer. If you were you would have said 'that's crazy, man'.