i am the new atheist

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
- Somebody's comin', Pa!

Can you see how "the new covenant" CANNOT be divorced from the redemptive death of Jesus ?

Do you see how we cannot separate His redeeming death from His coming to make a "new covenant" ?

Originally posted by sonship
Can you see how [b]"the new covenant" CANNOT be divorced from the redemptive death of Jesus ?

Do you see how we cannot separate His redeeming death from His coming to make a "new covenant" ?[/b]

You didn't like my "Shane" reference?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You didn't like my "Shane" reference?

No. I thought is was kind of funny. It seemed to refer to the beginning of the movie rather than the end.

If that was your meaning, I thought is was about as cute as my own lame reference.
I wanted to say "So YOU'RE ThinkofOne. I've heard about you."

But I thought that would be too much.
So I come back to the point.

Can you see how the new covenant HAS to involve the shedding of the redeeming blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins ?

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be right, or to be righteous. There is nothing wrong with believing that "I want to live right and be righteous before God."

Again, I say strongly, there is nothing WRONG with wanting to say "What is important is that i LIVE righteously."

But to do so, you need a foundation of REDEMPTION.
To live righteously you need a foundation of God removing out of His sight forever your past sins.

He has to remove the real guilt of sin before He can dispense His divine life into our beings. This is true truth. This can be taken to the bank.

We need to be forgiven.
We need to be regenerated so as to have Christ live in us.
Then we have to LEARN to live another way because we are USE to living in the self and in the self righteousness.

What do you think Paul was saying in Philippians 3:7-11.

Originally posted by sonship
[b]The NEW Covenant totally involves His shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sins.

I did not say that that was the ONLY thing the new covenant is about. But it is a major part of what the "new covenant" is according to Jesus. And according to Jesus with your own favorite phrase (while he walked on earth).

" And ...[text shortened]... NT, which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:27)

[/b]

To understand what Jesus is saying there, you'll need to understand it in context of other things He said.

1) The word given as "forgiveness" from Luke in your translation literally means "freedom".

2) In John 6 Jesus also speaks of "eating", "bread", "body/flesh", "drinking" and "blood". wherein Jesus uses the metaphor of "eating flesh", "drinking blood" to refer to " the words that I have spoken to you". In short, one "eats" and "drinks" His words so that they will abide in Him.

3) In John 15 Jesus explains that "abiding" in Him entails "keep[ing] His commandments" (words).

4) In John 8 Jesus explain that those who "abide in [His] words" will be made "free" from committing sin.

So when Jesus tells them to eat His body (flesh) and drink His blood, He is really speaking of them eating and drinking His words just as He does in John 6.

So what Jesus means in Matthew 26:28 is "for [these are My words] of the covenant, which is poured out for many for [freedom from] sins" which parallels what He said in John 8 about those who abide in His word being freed from committing sin.

This makes so much more sense than Him making some really awkward reference to His future death. Especially in light of Luke 22:19 where He says "do this in remembrance of Me." He's asking them to do it in remembrance of His words - NOT in "remembrance" of His death which hasn't happened yet.

Originally posted by sonship
No. I thought is was kind of funny. It seemed to refer to the beginning of the movie rather than the end.

If that was your meaning, I thought is was about as cute as my own lame reference.
I wanted to say "So YOU'RE ThinkofOne. I've heard about you."

But I thought that would be too much.
So I come back to the point.

Can you see how the new cove ...[text shortened]... d in the self righteousness.

What do you think Paul was saying in [b]Philippians 3:7-11.[/b]

Yeah, it's from when the boy first sees Shane.

You began at the end and I began at the beginning. I thought it appropriate given how we each approach the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth.

Originally posted by josephw
Quit whining.

This is not whining . at the moment it is an honourable suggestion ,pray it doesn't turn into a threat

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

1) The word given as "forgiveness" from Luke in your translation literally means "freedom".

The passage I quoted from Luke does not have the English word forgiveness in it at all. It was Luke 22:20

"And similarly the cup after they had dined, saying, This cup is the new covenant established in My blood which is being poured out for you."

Of course there is no possibility that we could be confused about the forgiveness being secured by the shedding of His blood. The entire Old Testament testifies that blood atonement is what He was speaking about even if in that verse He does not use "freedom" or "forgiveness". Why else would the blood of Christ be poured out ?

So I will assume you made a mistake and are talking about the other passage I quoted from the Recovery Version - Matthew 26:28 which, my English translation does say - "for the forgiveness of sins"

I am checking about 30 other translations and notice that every one of them has either "forgiveness" or "remission". One has "release". And one has "ratification of" the covenant.

The point on "freedom" verses "forgiveness" or "remission" I find not very significant. I don't think I'll spend much time arguing over that with you.

2) In John 6 Jesus also speaks of "eating", "bread", "body/flesh", "drinking" and "blood". wherein Jesus uses the metaphor of "eating flesh", "drinking blood" to refer to " the words that I have spoken to you". In short, one "eats" and "drinks" His words so that they will abide in Him.

I am fully aware that when the disciples inquired about the difficulty of these sayings Jesus pointed to the words which He speaks which are spirit and life.

" It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing; the words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." (v. 63)

I won't spend much time debating about this now. Except I would say that it could not possibly mean that Jesus took His DEATH to not be profitable. The garden of Gethsemane temptation utterly proves that He regarded His shedding of His blood as terribly significant. It was the moment of His greatest battle.

And it was the cup from the Father which He refused to FAIL to drink. He would do the will of His Father to redeem man with the shedding of His blood.

Please do not try to tell us that John 6:63 shows that He did not regard His laying down His life as profitable for our forgiveness.

3) In John 15 Jesus explains that "abiding" in Him entails "keep[ing] His commandments" (words).

"Abide in Me and I in you" is ITSELF a commandment.
I do not argue at all that to abide in Him needs our obedience.

It is an unusual and extraordinary command. It is to abide in Him so that He may abide in us. He commands then that we allow Him to live in us. If you do not believe that He is alive you cannot abide in Him.

But if you don't believe He is Who He is you will die in your sins, period.
So the first instance of obeying Him is to believe in Him to be joined to Him.

" Therefore I said to you that you will die in our sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)

If you do not believe that He rose from the dead and is your Lord, you will die in your sins and perish forever. If you believe into Him your judgment already took place on His cross at Calvary.

Sins will be judged. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission.
You are in danger if you cannot confess "Lord God, my sins have been judged in the death of Christ according to Your word and Your promise."

4) In John 8 Jesus explain that those who "abide in [His] words" will be made "free" from committing sin.

I do not argue that John 8 speaks of being made free and free indeed. And I would add that Revelation says we are LOOSED or RELEASED from our sins "by His blood".

" And from Jesus Christ, the faithful Witness, the Firstborn from the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth.

To Him who loves us and has released us from our sins by His blood." (Rev. 1:5)

You must forget about attempting to use the New Testament to teach against the New Testament concerning the redeeming blood, the releasing blood of Christ.

So when Jesus tells them to eat His body (flesh) and drink His blood, He is really speaking of them eating and drinking His words just as He does in John 6.

I have already said verse 63 emphasizes His words. And Peter in the same chapter says that they have nowhere else to go because Jesus has the words of eternal life.

The fact of the matter is that sinful man is alienated from the life of God (Eph. 4:18). He CANNOT abide in Christ until his sins have been washed away in His blood.

Romans 8 says that the regenerated spirit is life BECAUSE of righteousness.

"But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the [human] spirit is [divine] life because of righteousness." (Rom 8:10)

With no redemption there is no justification. With no justification there is no righteousness before God. With no righteousness before God you are still "estranged from the life of God" regardless of how much you know about Bible verses.

The human spirit is regenerated to receive the ZOE life of God because of imparted "righteousness". If you do not receive Him you will die in your sins.

So what Jesus means in Matthew 26:28 is "for [these are My words] of the covenant, which is poured out for many for [freedom from] sins" which parallels what He said in John 8 about those who abide in His word being freed from committing sin.

If He did not feel His blood was necessary to be poured out He certainly would not have taken the cup of the Father's will to die. If His blood was all allegorical to the extent that you argue then being a man of typical human attributes He would have AVOIDED the death of the cross.

The temptation of the garden of Gethsemane proves that He laid down His will to the uttermost to do the will of His Father to shed His blood for us.

Your tampering with the truth will cause greater blindness in your heart. This is dangerous. And it could be addicting too.

This makes so much more sense than Him making some really awkward reference to His future death.

From the very early part of His ministry He spoke of His death. He spoke of it as His hour. And He said that for this He came into the world. He was the only man who ever came in to the world to die.

You are doing all this to establish your own righteousness before God ?
There is only ONE with whom God is satisfied, His Son.

Especially in light of Luke 22:19 where He says "do this in remembrance of Me." He's asking them to do it in remembrance of His words - NOT in "remembrance" of His death which hasn't happened yet.

Actually it says for the disciples to do this in remembrance of Him - period. I think He meant of all that He was and all that He did.

You seem not to be interested in the remembrance of Him but in the FORGETTING of Him.

Originally posted by sonship

1) The word given as "forgiveness" from Luke in your translation literally means "freedom".

The passage I quoted from [b]Luke does not have the English word forgiveness in it at all. It was Luke 22:20

[quote] "And similarly the cup after they had dined, saying, This cup is the new covenant established in My bl ...[text shortened]... did.

You seem not to be interested in the remembrance of Him but in the FORGETTING of Him.

Like I said in an earlier post, "you began at the end" when approaching the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth. You take the words of Jesus and bend them to fit what you already believe from reading the words of Paul. You refuse to allow His words to speak for themselves.

The passage I quoted from Luke does not have the English word forgiveness in it at all.
You're right. For #1 I should have written Matthew instead of Luke.

The entire Old Testament testifies that blood atonement is what He was speaking about even if in that verse He does not use "freedom" or "forgiveness". Why else would the blood of Christ be poured out ?
When Jesus speaks of His blood "being poured out" at the Lord's Supper, He is speaking of His words as I showed. The Old testament shows many ways other than "blood atonement". One way is by becoming righteous, i.e., by repentance, i.e., by no longer committing sin. This is what is consistent with what Jesus taught while He walked the Earth.

If He did not feel His blood was necessary to be poured out He certainly would not have taken the cup of the Father's will to die. If His blood was all allegorical to the extent that you argue then being a man of typical human attributes He would have AVOIDED the death of the cross. The temptation of the garden of Gethsemane proves that He laid down His will to the uttermost to do the will of His Father to shed His blood for us.
When Jesus speaks of His blood "being poured out" at the Lord's Supper, He is speaking of His words. The only thing that the temptation of the garden of Gethsemane "proves" is that you've chosen to read that into it.

The NEW Covenant totally involves His shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sins.

I showed that Jesus was actually speaking of His words being poured out for freedom from sin. That is consistent with what He taught earlier as I demonstrated.

You take the words of Jesus and bend them to fit what you already believe from reading the words of Paul. You refuse to allow His words to speak for themselves.

BTW, I'd be interested in reading your views on the "Parable of the Talents" thread.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Christ came with a new covenant, based on love for our fellow man."

I think you have the cart before the horse. The "New Covenant" isn't based on our love for our fellow man. The New Covenant is based on God's love for mankind, and His grace and mercy towards a lost and dying world. God gave His son because of His love for us. That's the New Coven ...[text shortened]... e cross on our behalf. Grace through faith in the shed blood of Christ. That's the New Covenant.[/b]

Yes, everyone knows this. This is you reading to me a definition of the new covenant. Too many Christians "know" the covenant without feeling it. If we're going to "walk the walk", it comes down to how we treat each other. God can read what is in our hearts, but if we do not have enough love in our hearts to even look after our brother, God can see this too. Love for each other, above and beyond our love for God, is how we will be judged. If we see our brothers living and dying in the streets yet we do not lift a finger to help them, we condemn ourselves. Jesus said, "Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." -- Matthew 25:45, KJV

Originally posted by josephw
Unscriptural.

There it is. The Judgement "Unscriptural" just because you believe Jesus is like you, instead of desiring to be like Jesus.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The new covenant that Jesus brought to the world is contained in the words He spoke while He walked the Earth.

His commandments serve as the foundation of the new covenant:

Matthew 22
37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost ...[text shortened]... GHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

See my comment about Josephw reading me "the covenant".

It goes double for you.

You both know the definition without living it.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Just as the gospel that Jesus brought to the world is contained in the words Jesus spoke while He walked the Earth, the new covenant is contained in the words Jesus spoke while He walked the Earth

I gather that you believe in a different "gospel" and a different "new covenant". Correct?

You people love to spout these same words without actually feeling them within.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." -- Matthew 7:21, KJV

Words, words, words. The Bible is not your God.

Originally posted by Suzianne
See my comment about Josephw reading me "the covenant".

It goes double for you.

You both know the definition without living it.

It goes double for you.
Why exactly does this go "double" for me?

You both know the definition without living it.

What exactly do you mean by this? Surely you must realize that you have no real idea of what I live or don't live.

Originally posted by Suzianne
You people love to spout these same words without actually feeling them within.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." -- Matthew 7:21, KJV

Words, words, words. The Bible is not your God.

You people love to spout these same words without actually feeling them within.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." -- Matthew 7:21, KJV

What do you think Jesus was explaining in Matthew 7:21-23?

Words, words, words. The Bible is not your God.

What exactly do you mean by this?

Does this bible god have a mental existence of some sort? Of course it does, just as every other god ever invented.

So what do we know about mental existence? (See what I did there? Brought something to the table.)