1. Hmmm . . .
    Joined
    19 Jan '04
    Moves
    22131
    09 Sep '13 22:234 edits
    In Martin Buber’s classic I and Thou, he proposes that we can relate to the Other (specifically, the human, individual other) according to the concepts embedded in two different hyphenated word pairs: I-You or I-It. In the first, we recognize the other as a person like us who, like us, has hopes and fears and biases and dreams and anxieties, etc. . In the second, we treat the other more or less instrumentally: as a source of personal gain or loss; as a promise or a threat to our being, culture or personal beliefs; as someone to manipulate, or be manipulated by; as an adversary to defeat, or be defeated by, in debate and argument; etc..

    It strikes me that, due to the insulating anonymity of the web, we often treat the Other, on here, more as an “It” than a “Thou”—and, perhaps, hiding behind that anonymity ourselves, we expect (even hope) to be treated the same. In such anonymity, there can be a kind of security. I have taken advantage of such anonymity myself, as I have, over the years, argued a number of issues from various differing perspectives.

    —I am also leery of revealing too much of my personal history on here, since there have been times when I (perhaps naively) did so, only to have such revelations used (abused) in a pretentious scam of telling me who I “really” am and/or what I must “really” think.

    But, under Buber’s ethics (or the ethics of Emmanuel Lévinas), we must not forget that our interlocutor is, behind the anonymity of a web identity and username, a real person—a Thou—with feelings and fears and sensitivities not wholly unlike ourselves. I suggest that we should remember, even as we ourselves might enjoy the anonymity of an internet “It-It” relation, that the Other is a person—to whom, according to Lévinas, we owe an intrinsic regard and concern. If it turns out that we do not regard highly, or much respect, that particular individual as they reveal themselves on here—we nevertheless owe them a fundamental existential regard, a priori, as another human being caught in their particular existential conditions.

    In other words, even if we do not like the Other, or approve of their opinions or deportment—and even as we may, at times, express that dislike/disapproval—and even as we ourselves enjoy the security of a certain anonymity—we are nevertheless under an existential and ethical imperative to treat them as a “Thou”, not an “It”.

    Thoughts?
  2. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
    Brisbane,QLD
    Joined
    11 Apr '09
    Moves
    91563
    10 Sep '13 02:01
    Originally posted by vistesd
    In Martin Buber’s classic I and Thou, he proposes that we can relate to the Other (specifically, the human, individual other) according to the concepts embedded in two different hyphenated word pairs: I-You or I-It. In the first, we recognize the other as a person like us who, like us, has hopes and fears and biases and dreams and anxi ...[text shortened]... under an existential and ethical imperative to treat them as a “Thou”, not an “It”.

    Thoughts?
    Thank you. Very thought provoking.

    In the past couple of years I have been going around saying,(to the extreme few that I feel would want to hear), that we have many brains but only one mind.
    I've been trying to understand what this means in practice. Whether the theory holds or if it is too holey 🙂
  3. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    USA
    Joined
    14 Jul '07
    Moves
    43012
    10 Sep '13 03:10
    Originally posted by vistesd
    In Martin Buber’s classic I and Thou, he proposes that we can relate to the Other (specifically, the human, individual other) according to the concepts embedded in two different hyphenated word pairs: I-You or I-It. In the first, we recognize the other as a person like us who, like us, has hopes and fears and biases and dreams and anxi ...[text shortened]... under an existential and ethical imperative to treat them as a “Thou”, not an “It”.

    Thoughts?
    "It strikes me that, due to the insulating anonymity of the web, we often treat the Other, on here, more as an “It” than a “Thou”—and, perhaps, hiding behind that anonymity ourselves, we expect (even hope) to be treated the same. In such anonymity, there can be a kind of security. I have taken advantage of such anonymity myself, as I have, over the years, argued a number of issues from various differing perspectives."

    visted, do you think inscrutable nicknames and diversionary avatars facilitate the anonymity Martin Buber describes?
  4. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
    Scheveningen
    Joined
    12 Jun '08
    Moves
    14509
    10 Sep '13 05:47
    Originally posted by vistesd
    In Martin Buber’s classic I and Thou, he proposes that we can relate to the Other (specifically, the human, individual other) according to the concepts embedded in two different hyphenated word pairs: I-You or I-It. In the first, we recognize the other as a person like us who, like us, has hopes and fears and biases and dreams and anxi ...[text shortened]... under an existential and ethical imperative to treat them as a “Thou”, not an “It”.

    Thoughts?
    A real person?
    The eyes see forms outside, but inside there is nothing. The ears hear defiling sounds but the mind doesn’t know. Everything, “Thou - It” included, is produced and extinguished by conditions. Obtaining, I ‘m not delighted. Losing, I don’t worry. Knowing how to be content I ‘m always happy, knowing to be patient I ‘m peaceful and I get rid of my afflictions. Great wisdom resembles great stupidity, great cleverness resembles to total clumsiness. All ways are all minds; the nature of everything is mind-only, everything is made of mind. The world is three steps long, the universe less than a foot wide overall. Emptiness itself is existence and existence itself is emptiness, emptiness is just existence and existence is just emptiness, true emptiness is just wonderful existence and wonderful existence is just true emptiness. Inside there is no body and mind, outside there is no world. Phenomena themselves are noumenon, noumenon itself is phenomena. When competing there is attachment to Right and Wrong, when penetrating there is no debating with adversaries. No deliberations, no considerations, no consciousness, no knowing, thus no afflictions; show me your product and I ‘ll give you the copy


    Best to you and yours, my friend
    đŸ˜”
  5. Standard memberBosse de Nage
    ZellulÀrer Automat
    Spiel des Lebens
    Joined
    27 Jan '05
    Moves
    83887
    10 Sep '13 07:391 edit
    Originally posted by vistesd

    Thoughts?
    You are my opportunity to reveal me to me and thee. We are conversation. Conversation is an art. I and Thou perform each other as well or as badly as skill and circumstance permit. It's also nice to learn another language.

    By the way you might want to read Ricoeur on narrative identity.
  6. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
    Scheveningen
    Joined
    12 Jun '08
    Moves
    14509
    10 Sep '13 08:39
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    You are my opportunity to reveal me to me and thee. We are conversation. Conversation is an art. I and Thou perform each other as well or as badly as skill and circumstance permit. It's also nice to learn another language.

    By the way you might want to read Ricoeur on narrative identity.
    So good to see you around, I hope you and yours are all good!
    Instead of conversation, this scarab seems to think that we are nothing but (empty) StoriesđŸ˜”
  7. Standard memberBosse de Nage
    ZellulÀrer Automat
    Spiel des Lebens
    Joined
    27 Jan '05
    Moves
    83887
    10 Sep '13 09:04
    Originally posted by black beetle
    So good to see you around, I hope you and yours are all good!
    Instead of conversation, this scarab seems to think that we are nothing but (empty) StoriesđŸ˜”
    Dennett speaks of the "narrative centre of gravity", which I gloss as the no-place that seduces no-one into speaking as if someone.

    I take it Athens hasn't fallen around your ears just yet.

    I am reading Ritsos in translation and listening to Theodorakis' settings of his poems.

    It seems that Seferis spent WW2 in South Africa which is very interesting. He left a diary that I have as well.

    What living author can you recommend?
  8. Standard memberBosse de Nage
    ZellulÀrer Automat
    Spiel des Lebens
    Joined
    27 Jan '05
    Moves
    83887
    10 Sep '13 09:082 edits
    Regarding instrumentality: Some conduct themselves in such a way as to become stock figures, stereotypes, parodies, inviting instrumentalisation. They bring it on themselves. It is permissible to laugh at them.

    Caveat: Such people are commonly regarded as fools, but they are not true fools. Given sufficient brute force, they may attain positions of power.
  9. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    USA
    Joined
    14 Jul '07
    Moves
    43012
    10 Sep '13 09:37
    Originally posted by black beetle
    A real person?
    The eyes see forms outside, but inside there is nothing. The ears hear defiling sounds but the mind doesn’t know. Everything, “Thou - It” included, is produced and extinguished by conditions. Obtaining, I ‘m not delighted. Losing, I don’t worry. Knowing how to be content I ‘m always happy, knowing to be patient I ‘m peaceful and I get ri ...[text shortened]... ions; show me your product and I ‘ll give you the copy


    Best to you and yours, my friend
    đŸ˜”
    "... show me your product and I ‘ll give you the copy"

    > 'black beetle'

    lol <-- looks like a man drowning
  10. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    USA
    Joined
    14 Jul '07
    Moves
    43012
    10 Sep '13 09:38
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    You are my opportunity to reveal me to me and thee. We are conversation. Conversation is an art. I and Thou perform each other as well or as badly as skill and circumstance permit. It's also nice to learn another language.

    By the way you might want to read Ricoeur on narrative identity.
    +9
  11. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
    Scheveningen
    Joined
    12 Jun '08
    Moves
    14509
    10 Sep '13 09:59
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Dennett speaks of the "narrative centre of gravity", which I gloss as the no-place that seduces no-one into speaking as if someone.

    I take it Athens hasn't fallen around your ears just yet.

    I am reading Ritsos in translation and listening to Theodorakis' settings of his poems.

    It seems that Seferis spent WW2 in South Africa which is very interesting. He left a diary that I have as well.

    What living author can you recommend?
    I conceive the universe as a self-referential observer that computes itself, unfolding its contained observers/ events/ phenomena into a chaotic sequence of emerging observers/ events/ phenomena that are not completely derivable by obvious previous karma; these events in total are patterns projected out of a common ground -and one of them is the originator of our delusional ego, which in turn is a by-product of our own necessity of perception. &#932;here is nothing to perceive because the unfolding of the reality is an impersonal process of differ manifestations from a ground of reality that transcends the Floating World, for everything within the observer universe depends on other causes and conditions. So methinks there is nothing within the observer universe that is existent thanks to its own inherent being, Dennet’s “narrative centre of reality” included; in fact, methinks Dennet is fully aware of the fact that the stuff of the reality as we perceive it in our dreams is exactly the same as the stuff of our perceptions as they arise during our ordinary life, for he knows that his object is just another product of the mind;

    Athens keeps up falling around my ears, but who cares!

    Ritsos is a soldier and Theodorakis too, and Seferiadis is strong; as regards a living author, unfortunately I can recommend none. The longer one goes to the past, the best one finds; it’s been some time I haven’t see the three spectres wandering by the Castalian SpringđŸ˜”
  12. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
    Scheveningen
    Joined
    12 Jun '08
    Moves
    14509
    10 Sep '13 10:06
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    "... show me your product and I ‘ll give you the copy"

    > 'black beetle'

    lol <-- looks like a man drowning
    Perhaps,
    but instead of cluching at a straw as a drowing man, this scarab enjoys his walking on his fastly cascading down the river treeđŸ˜”
  13. Standard memberBosse de Nage
    ZellulÀrer Automat
    Spiel des Lebens
    Joined
    27 Jan '05
    Moves
    83887
    10 Sep '13 10:28
    Originally posted by black beetle
    I conceive the universe as a self-referential observer that computes itself, unfolding its contained observers/ events/ phenomena into a chaotic sequence of emerging observers/ events/ phenomena that are not completely derivable by obvious previous karma; these events in total are patterns projected out of a common ground -and one of them is the origina ...[text shortened]... finds; it’s been some time I haven’t see the three spectres wandering by the Castalian SpringđŸ˜”
    No direction home.

    This is quite in keeping with Rosenzweig's idea of the travelling differential, although he likes the idea of redemption (ultimate plenitude: when the concept of the All loses its incoherence).

    I also like Kavafis, although not for revolutionary sentiments. Gearing up to watching the film (apparently "the best Greek film of the 20th century"; I wouldn't know).

    Planning on learning basic Greek! Slowly learning to read. Got to match the marks on the page with the sounds in the ear. Poetry's good for that.
  14. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
    Scheveningen
    Joined
    12 Jun '08
    Moves
    14509
    10 Sep '13 10:37
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    No direction home.

    This is quite in keeping with Rosenzweig's idea of the travelling differential, although he likes the idea of redemption (ultimate plenitude: when the concept of the All loses its incoherence).

    I also like Kavafis, although not for revolutionary sentiments. Gearing up to watching the film (apparently "the best Greek film of t ...[text shortened]... ead. Got to match the marks on the page with the sounds in the ear. Poetry's good for that.
    Kavafis is fine, in my opinion he is the best;

    Good luck with your Greek, enjoy it to the hiltđŸ˜”
  15. Standard memberBosse de Nage
    ZellulÀrer Automat
    Spiel des Lebens
    Joined
    27 Jan '05
    Moves
    83887
    10 Sep '13 10:42
    Originally posted by black beetle
    Kavafis is fine, in my opinion he is the best;

    Good luck with your Greek, enjoy it to the hiltđŸ˜”
    Cheers.
Back to Top