Originally posted by sonhouse
Humans telling me about god, what a joke.

Who ELSE is going to tell you about God? God Himself? Sorry, that just ain't happening.

I've told you and told you that proof is not possible because God wants us free to make up our own mind and to own that decision. You're asking for the 'cheat sheet'. How incredibly lazy.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Who ELSE is going to tell you about God? God Himself? Sorry, that just ain't happening.

I've told you and told you that proof is not possible because God wants us free to make up our own mind and to own that decision. You're asking for the 'cheat sheet'. How incredibly lazy.

Suzianne, while the op may not have been worded clearly enough...

As an atheist, I/we don't believe in any gods.

Atheism isn't the disbelief in the Christian god, it's the disbelief in all gods.


As someone who doesn't think that any god exists, I have no special place
for the Christian god.


So when I/we say that the only person qualified to demonstrate a gods existence
is that god, your indignation that we ask your particular god to get off it's ass and
demonstrate it's existence if it wants people to believe in it only applies to that one
singular god and not to the hundreds, or thousands of other gods people have
invented over the millennia.


And even then, your particular view that god can't reveal it's existence without
destroying 'free will' is not only not shared by us, but isn't even shared by all, or
possibly even most, fellow Christians.


You are talking like you KNOW your god is real, and that you KNOW what your god
is doing and thinking.

And you don't and can't.

You have faith and belief and that is all.



And in point of fact, it is faith that is easy and lazy.

It's rigorously questioning reality and ourselves using scientific skepticism and method
to avoid and correct for our inbuilt biases and heuristics that is hard.

That is why most people now and throughout history believe in gods, and/or the supernatural.
And why so few, have really practised and applied reason and logic and scientific skepticism.

Faith is like the dark side of the force, it's easier and more seductive than reason and logic
and science.

Anyone can be a believer, being a scientist, that's hard.

Faith is like the dark side of the force, it's easier and more seductive than reason and logic
and science.

Anyone can be a believer, being a scientist, that's hard.

I think you simply regurgitate new atheist propaganda. Maybe you find that easy.

There are quality of scientists' personal lives - some more difficult than others.

There are quality of followers of Jesus personal lives - some more difficult than others.

Elizabeth Elliot was the wife of a Christian missionary to South America. Her husband was speared to death trying to supply practical goods and the gospel to native tribes in South America. After her husband was speared to death, this believer moved into the jungle WITH her child daughter to continue to reach those people.

She lived among them with her daughter, adopted their ways, and managed to lead even one of her husband's executors to Jesus Christ.

Easy life ? Her book was called "Through Gates of Splendor" . Now go look up what negative things some atheist has said about it.

Originally posted by sonship

Faith is like the dark side of the force, it's easier and more seductive than reason and logic
and science.

Anyone can be a believer, being a scientist, that's hard.

I think you simply regurgitate new atheist propaganda. Maybe you find that easy.

There are quality of scientists' personal lives - some more difficult than others. ...[text shortened]... gh Gates of Splendor" . Now go look up what negative things some atheist has said about it.[/b]

That is one of the despicable aspects of christianity, the obsession with missionaries to convert people who have had their culture for thousands of years and christians come in with the built in attitude that christianity is CLEARLY infinitely superior to ANY other culture on Earth. I saw the results of such missions in Thailand where I worked for several years. A mormon missionary family came in to try to convert the poor buddhists who were clearly in the dark about the true faith. So in they come to town, literally walking single file through our little village literally looking with disdain on the whole town since they didn't have paved highways just dirt roads in town and the FILTH, you could just SEE them going OMG we have to save these poor savages.

So about 6 months into their so-called missionary work, they take a bit or R&R in Bankok. Visited the Emerald Buddha. The thing about Buddhism they didn't know or care to know is Buddhists consider the head as the holy part of the body and the butt as the lowest on the spiritual totem pole. So what do these Mormon asssholes do, when nobody was looking, no guards around, they CLIMB TO THE TOP OF THE BUDDHA and the other dude on the ground snaps this total assshole's picture. THEN THEY REVERSED. So BOTH dudes were on the shoulders of the Buddha taking pictures.

They were so clueless to the culture they took the film to a local Thai photography studio for processing and it just so happened the people there were, crazy as it sounds, Buddhist.

So they saw the images and were incensed, called the cops who were waiting for these idiots when they came back for the pictures. They were thrown in jail for 6 months and THEN deported, the whole frigging idiot family.

That is just a LITTLE example of the built in sense of absolute superiority inherent in christian missionaries.

You speak of these missionaries as if they were saints but the reality is they come into a country with an indigenous population intact for thousands of years and convince them of the obvious superiority of the christian religion and totally screw up their culture, sometimes with brute force, just like the Muslims are doing in Africa today and have been doing for a thousand years. But of course christians consider themselves FAR superior to ANY muslim because THEY have the TRUE god.

It makes me want to puke at their assumption of superiority. They have NO RIGHT to come into an ancient culture and ruin it. They have done that hundreds of times and the world is WAY worse off for it.

I have seen the results of such conversions up close and personal in my travels around the world, Alaska natives, Amerind tribes, Thailand, and other places having gotten the worse of the contact with christianity.

Originally posted by sonship

Faith is like the dark side of the force, it's easier and more seductive than reason and logic
and science.

Anyone can be a believer, being a scientist, that's hard.

I think you simply regurgitate new atheist propaganda. Maybe you find that easy.

There are quality of scientists' personal lives - some more difficult than others. ...[text shortened]... gh Gates of Splendor" . Now go look up what negative things some atheist has said about it.[/b]

[there is no such thing as 'new atheism' except in the minds of upset theists who
don't like that people are starting to actually pay attention to the fact that there
are atheists and that they have a voice and shouldn't be discriminated against.
And I don't regurgitate other peoples 'propaganda'. These are my words and my
thoughts. I don't claim to be the first to think much of/or any of this. But these
are my thoughts and no-one else's.]

You miss-understand me.

Looking at faith based belief vs scientific rationality as opposing modes of thought.

Faith based belief comes easier and more naturally than rational skeptical thinking.


This doesn't mean that faith based believers lives are necessarily easier.

In fact thinking and acting rationally and taking advantage of and understanding
science and secular morality can make lives easier and safer and more fulfilling.


But in terms of modes of thought, faith based belief is easier than rationality.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Humans telling me about god, what a joke.

I knew that a long time ago sonhouse, where you are coming from. I have never rejected you. And i will enjoy having you in paradise with me. The chess board is already there waiting for you.

Oh i can hear the "Christains" out there. You must forgive them, Sonhouse, they have forgotten what it means to be Christain. There is nearly no faith. Tell me, you christains, do you have the faith to tell a tree to get up and throw yourself into the sea??? Can you look into anothers heart and know the condition of that soul? Does the Holy Spirit make its home in you? How can i be so sure about sonhouse? You do not know who i am, yet.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Who ELSE is going to tell you about God? God Himself? Sorry, that just ain't happening.

I've told you and told you that proof is not possible because God wants us free to make up our own mind and to own that decision. You're asking for the 'cheat sheet'. How incredibly lazy.

God does reveal himself to us all the time, we just don't know how to receive Him.

You cannot talk about God to Sonhouse, he learns though experiencing God. I don't preach to Sonhouse, i accept him for who he is. I know he is full of compassion, this is something God loves.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Suzianne, while the op may not have been worded clearly enough...

As an atheist, I/we don't believe in any gods.

Atheism isn't the disbelief in the Christian god, it's the disbelief in all gods.


As someone who doesn't think that any god exists, I have no special place
for the Christian god.


So when I/we say that the only person qualifie ...[text shortened]... han reason and logic
and science.

Anyone can be a believer, being a scientist, that's hard.

This is where many "christains" and i part company. The many i speak of believe you must know Jesus as Lord and Savior. They quote that phrase but don't understand it. If a person only knows Jesus as Lord and Savior in their heads, it is nothing more than the physical circumsizion (i know i spelled that wrong).

I don't care if a person is an atheist. What really matters is a persons compassion in there hearts. To me, a person with compassion in their hearts is one whose heart is circumsized.

Jesus never says you must know him to go to the Father. He only states no one can go to the Father but through me.

Paul states, those who know the law will be judged by the law, and those who do not know the law will be judged by the law written in their hearts.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
God does reveal himself to us all the time, we just don't know how to receive Him.

You cannot talk about God to Sonhouse, he learns though experiencing God. I don't preach to Sonhouse, i accept him for who he is. I know he is full of compassion, this is something God loves.

Oh I believe God does have to reveal Himself to us, I cannot nor can
anyone else reveal God. That said, He will do it in His time, in His ways, we
are not God's puppet master where He jumps through hoops at our
command.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Oh I believe God does have to reveal Himself to us, I cannot nor can
anyone else reveal God. That said, He will do it in His time, in His ways, we
are not God's puppet master where He jumps through hoops at our
command.
Kelly

I know you do Kelly, i can see it in you. The Spirit of God is strong in you.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
I know you do Kelly, i can see it in you. The Spirit of God is strong in you.

No, the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit, and being the Spirit of God He is
strong no matter where He is, I'm just a sinner saved by grace.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit, and being the Spirit of God He is
strong no matter where He is, I'm just a sinner saved by grace.
Kelly

true enough, let me rephrase that then. Your faith is strong and the Holy Spirit lives in you, whether you believe it or not.

Originally posted by sonhouse
That is one of the despicable aspects of christianity, the obsession with missionaries to convert people who have had their culture for thousands of years and christians come in with the built in attitude that christianity is CLEARLY infinitely superior to ANY other culture on Earth. I saw the results of such missions in Thailand where I worked for several ...[text shortened]... ind tribes, Thailand, and other places having gotten the worse of the contact with christianity.

You are wrong to believe that Mormans are Christians. They are followers of the teachings of Joseph Smith, not Christ Jesus.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
You are wrong to believe that Mormans are Christians. They are followers of the teachings of Joseph Smith, not Christ Jesus.

The Instructor

I don't think it was Mormons who ravaged South America in the 1500's. They decimated an entire civilization because they arrogantly thought themselves infinitely superior to ANY other society on Earth. You don't obtain a 'get out of jail free' card for missionary work.

Jesus never says you must know him to go to the Father. He only states no one can go to the Father but through me.

What about if they oppose and reject Him and all that He stands for ?

This may go into whether they have rejected an idol or superstition or have rejected Jesus Himself.

I am pretty sure that a person brought up to believe the weird picture on the wall which his parents treated as a "good luck" charm superstitiously, counts as Jesus in John 14:6. If he rejects that, I don't think that counts are rejecting Christ.

But some simply know something of Christ and do reject Christ. How can they come to the Father ? They will not go through Him intentionally. God is in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.