I don't reject god. I reject HUMANS telling me about it.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Um, no. Pure randomness is not an absence of rules.

We are probably just misunderstanding each other.
If a photon leaves a light source, passes through a slit and hits a screen, quantum mechanics can tell us the probability of it hitting in any given location: this is a rule. Quantum mechanics cannot tell us exactly where it will hit. The exact location we call 'random' because we know of no rule that determines the exact location. The word 'random' means 'no deterministic rule'. Randomness is specifically the absence of rules.

Originally posted by twhitehead
We are probably just misunderstanding each other.
If a photon leaves a light source, passes through a slit and hits a screen, quantum mechanics can tell us the probability of it hitting in any given location: this is a rule. Quantum mechanics cannot tell us exactly where it will hit. The exact location we call 'random' because we know of no rule that det ...[text shortened]... he word 'random' means 'no deterministic rule'. Randomness is specifically the absence of rules.

yeah, but the position isn't random.

It follows a probability distribution... It can't therefore be random.

If it were random there would be equal probability of it arriving at any given point.

The fact that there is a probability distribution means that it's not random, and
that it's following rules.


EDIT: also, random doesn't mean non-deterministic.

If I have a grid of white pixels and then start randomly flipping one pixel at a time from either white to
black or black to white depending on it's starting colour.
Then each pixel with have an equal chance of being the one that is flipped in each iteration.

However, if it's non-random then there will be a probability distribution, or deterministic pattern that
decides which pixel gets flipped.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Is There Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God? How the Recent Discoveries Support a Designed Universe by Dr. Walter L. Bradley

[b]I must conclude that it takes a great deal more faith to believe in an accidental universe than to believe in an intelligent creator, or God who crafted such a marvelous universe and beautiful place of habitation in pl ...[text shortened]...
Atheism & the Law of Causality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEViOoeBikc

The Instructor

I've always been fasinated that so many people are always trying to negate the existance of God. Some people will fight tooth and nail against the idea.
Maybe it is because if they had to acknowledge it, then they would to look at their misconduct. lol

Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]This is where many "christains" and i part company. The many i speak of believe you must know Jesus as Lord and Savior.

I'm not sure what you are saying here, is it that you think Jesus is just a
notion or feeling not a specific person that we need to go to?
Kelly[/b]

If Jesus is just a person we read about everyday in scripture or in our daily prayer, then turn around and cuss out the first person that cuts us off in traffic. Then we have nothing in faith. In all the reading and in all the praying, if love doesn't enter your heart. Then your faith is meaningless.

Speaking; 'i know Jesus' or saying things like, 'i'm baptized in the Spirit' and love is not in your heart, then you are just fooling yourself.

Originally posted by googlefudge
It follows a probability distribution... It can't therefore be random.
If it were random there would be equal probability of it arriving at any given point.
The fact that there is a probability distribution means that it's not random,

So when I roll 2 dice and record the random results.
And plot them on a graph that's not a probability distribution?

a probability distribution assigns a probability to each measurable subset
of the possible outcomes of a random experiment, survey, or procedure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability_distribution

Originally posted by Pudgenik
If Jesus is just a person we read about everyday in scripture or in our daily prayer, then turn around and cuss out the first person that cuts us off in traffic. Then we have nothing in faith. In all the reading and in all the praying, if love doesn't enter your heart. Then your faith is meaningless.

Speaking; 'i know Jesus' or saying things like, 'i'm baptized in the Spirit' and love is not in your heart, then you are just fooling yourself.

Not denying people mouth following Jesus over actually doing it, but that
was not my question either was it? Is Jesus a specific person that God the
Father sent to us or no? It is an important question, some do as we have
been warned deny Christ came in the flesh.
Kelly

Originally posted by googlefudge
[b]yeah, but the position isn't random./b]

It has a random element to it as far as we know.

It follows a probability distribution... It can't therefore be random.

If it were random there would be equal probability of it arriving at any given point.
'Equal probability' is a probability distribution.

The fact that there is a probability distribution means that it's not random, and
that it's following rules.
It does not rule out a random element.

EDIT: also, random doesn't mean non-deterministic.
I think it does. What does it mean to you?

If I have a grid of white pixels and then start randomly flipping one pixel at a time from either white to black or black to white depending on it's starting colour.
Then each pixel with have an equal chance of being the one that is flipped in each iteration.
ie non-deterministic.

However, if it's non-random then there will be a probability distribution, or deterministic pattern that decides which pixel gets flipped.
ie deterministic.
You even put 'or deterministic' in your sentence.
I still say that a probability distribution may contain an element of randomness.

The non-uniform probability distribution of a photon hitting a screen is a function of the location of the source and the shape of the screen and any interfering elements in between. However the photon leaves its source in an random direction with a uniform probability distribution for every direction. It is only what happens after that that results in a non-uniform distribution. Nevertheless, the exact location that the photon will strike remains unpredictable and as far as we know contains a non-deterministic element.

If I took your black and white grid and applied some mathematics to it, I could come up with a non-uniform distribution, but that would not change the fact that your flipping pixels is random.