Originally posted by twhiteheadbut rather on the reliability of a suicidal woman that you have never met WHITEY
But as I pointed out in that thread the key to the story did not rely on the reliability of the person who told it to you but rather on the reliability of a suicidal woman that you have never met. Ordinary skepticism should have lead you to doubt the story or at least consider it to be unreliable whether or not such occurrences are relatively common. Inst ...[text shortened]... cite it as evidence that peace is likely in the middle east or would you check your facts first?
You forget that the person did not remain suicidal but maintained the story years afterwards . She recoverd and became a Christian as a result of this and cited the whole experience as pivotal. Are you suggesting she made it up? Obviously for her the experience was very genuine and she stuck to it in later years. The fact that what happened had such a powerful effect on her suggests that there was some strong correllation between her prayer and the event. Also bear in mind that the validity of it also rests partly with the cartwheeling guy who was there and heard what she said. I also think you overplay the fact she was suicidal. I grant you that this suggests that she was depressed and /or disturbed but sometimes depressed people display an honesty and integrity that we don't when we aren't depressed. I have seen depression bring truths out of people . When you are at the bottom of the barrel often pretence and self delusion go out the window. We don't know for certain what happened but we do know that something powerful enough happened to turn her life around and convert her. The fact that she was converted can be verified. She may have just been praying a general prayer but somehow God brought a Christian across her path just at the point when she was reaching out for God. This is something many Christians will recognise in their own lives.
Now I accept for you it's a big leap of faith to subsribe to this story but that does not mean it is as big a leap for me. Because I know something of who God is and what he gets up to it's actually not that surprising to me.
"If someone you know tells you that he heard from a suicidal woman that the partition wall in Israel has come down would you come to this forum and cite it as evidence that peace is likely in the middle east or would you check your facts first?" WHITEY
.....of course I would not but this is a false analogy since I have not nor did not claim this to be conclusive evidence of God just an interesting story that for me has spiritual significance and for you does not. No-one can prove God to you except Him . All I can do is get people thinking. Atheists say that there is no evidence of God doing things but what they mean is that there is no CONCLUSIVE evidence. But it is wrong to say that there is nothing happening out there because there is every day. You choose to interpret it a certain way , so do I.
Originally posted by knightmeisterNo. I was suggesting that you have no way of knowing whether:
Are you suggesting she made it up?
1. She made it up.
2. She did not report it exactly as it happened.
3. She believed it happened the ways she reported it but it did not in fact happen that way.
4. The person who told you the story did not tell it accurately ie made mistakes or elaborated beyond the truth.
etc.
As an example, I find it highly likely that if she simply prayed for a 'sign' and saw someone cartwheeling then she would later tell the story as her praying to see someone cartwheeling.
Obviously for her the experience was very genuine and she stuck to it in later years.
There is clearly a lot more to this story than you told us. Do you know the woman? How long after the events did you hear about it? You seem to have a complete case history, including years after the event.
The fact that what happened had such a powerful effect on her suggests that there was some strong correllation between her prayer and the event.
No it does not. It suggests that people tend to have life changing experiences when they are suicidal (or they commit suicide).
Also bear in mind that the validity of it also rests partly with the cartwheeling guy who was there and heard what she said.
Only the validity of what she said, and the fact that there are two possible points of error reduces the validity not increases it!
The fact that she was converted can be verified.
But has it been? You see you are taking something as fact because it can be verified. That is terrible logic.
She may have just been praying a general prayer but somehow God brought a Christian across her path just at the point when she was reaching out for God. This is something many Christians will recognise in their own lives.
Now you are getting closer to the likely truth, which is that coincidences of that nature are actually demanded by probability and I would be worried if the did not happen. Don't forget that mechanics also tend to show up when my car breaks down.
Now I accept for you it's a big leap of faith to subsribe to this story but that does not mean it is as big a leap for me. Because I know something of who God is and what he gets up to it's actually not that surprising to me.
Exactly my point which you then denied but are now admitting! You want to believe it because you see it as possible and it supports your faith. My claim is that even if it is possible and even highly likely, the information is still not enough to take it as true and your confidence that it is true is simply not warranted by the facts.
.....of course I would not but this is a false analogy since I have not nor did not claim this to be conclusive evidence of God just an interesting story that for me has spiritual significance and for you does not.
You used the word 'evidence'. I did not use the word 'conclusive'. My analogy is perfect.
No-one can prove God to you except Him. All I can do is get people thinking. Atheists say that there is no evidence of God doing things but what they mean is that there is no CONCLUSIVE evidence.
No. What they mean is there is no evidence that can stand up to scrutiny and has no other more parsimonious explanation
Originally posted by knightmeisterI think my observations are valid and I think that if you thought about it for a moment you would agree. Since we are playing at mind reading here I will ask why it is that so many theists are convinced that atheists are secret theists. It makes no sense at all. If I thought God existed what would I have to gain by pretending he doesn't? I can assure you that I have no doubts at all in my atheism and have no need whatsoever to try to make it easier to dismiss theism as I have dismissed it completely and utterly a long time ago. I am merely interested in why people believe what they do. Surely you must have similar thoughts about Muslims? Or are you one of those people that try to justify all faiths as possible paths to God?
I have always accepted Atheism as a valid and solid position with which I happen to disagree but would still argue my side of the fence. I believe that what you believe seems convincing for you. You do not have to do me the same honour but I find it suspicious that you do not. It make me wonder how solid your atheism is if you feel the need to paint ch ...[text shortened]... their faith. It must make it so much easier for you to dismiss without really thinking about it.
I suppose I can understand it , you may well have come across some sloppy thinking Christians who went to church because they liked the flowers and you think you can use that for the rest of your life to paint the rest of us with this brush.
In case you haven't been paying attention in these forums, the most sloppy thinking Christians are very very serious about their faith and would readily become a martyr rather than admit that one word in the Bible is wrong. To imply that they only go to church because of the flowers is an insult to them.
Don't you ever wonder why so many people will testify to having experienced the presence of the living Christ in their lives?
Of course I wonder, but never in a million years does it cross my mind that it might be true. Now don't you ever wonder about Muslims and all the other religions out there? Do you ever think "maybe the Muslims have it right"? Do you also realize that if you have most of it right then over 90% of Christians must have it wrong? In other words even if this experience of Jesus is genuine it only confirms 10% of your beliefs because that is all you have in common with all the other Christians experiencing the same things.
Originally posted by knightmeisterYet you still irrationally believe that atheists might actually 'try out' being Christian etc. You expect us to take you seriously. Yet when we act similarly potty and ask you to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster you don't even consider it. If you truly knew how potty you sound you would not expect anything other than laughter from atheists and the fact that we even talk to you about your beliefs should come as a surprise to you.
I think sometimes Atheists don't realise that some of us Christians do actually know how potty Christian faith sounds.
Originally posted by twhiteheadYes, it's interesting the whole issue of pottiness . I mean when you think about it life itself is potty. Here we are on a planet spinning through who knows what and we are still no closer than 2000 years ago to knowing what's it all about or why. They say life is stranger than fiction.
Yet you still irrationally believe that atheists might actually 'try out' being Christian etc. You expect us to take you seriously. Yet when we act similarly potty and ask you to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster you don't even consider it. If you truly knew how potty you sound you would not expect anything other than laughter from atheists and the fact that we even talk to you about your beliefs should come as a surprise to you.
Also , despite this pottiness the Chrsitian faith also has a very down to earth side to it as well.
BTW- The reason why I don't give the flying spaghetti monster much credence is because I doubt that a ball of spaghetti could have brought life into being.
Originally posted by twhiteheadSince we are playing at mind reading here I will ask why it is that so many theists are convinced that atheists are secret theists. WHITEY
I think my observations are valid and I think that if you thought about it for a moment you would agree. Since we are playing at mind reading here I will ask why it is that so many theists are convinced that atheists are secret theists. It makes no sense at all. If I thought God existed what would I have to gain by pretending he doesn't? I can assure you ...[text shortened]... that is all you have in common with all the other Christians experiencing the same things.
I don't think that you are a secret theist , but I do think that deep within you lies the unconscious awareness that God is real. Why do I believe this? Because I believe he is real and he witnesses to every soul. We all want to hide away from him because that's our nature. You are not pretending that you are an Atheist , you do believe it , but part of becoming a Christian is having a whole part of yourself revealed to you that you did not realise (your spirituality). This will sound arrogant to you , but you already have the seeds of being a Christian within you right now , it's just you are unaware of it.
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Originally posted by darthmixTell me why he's worth giving a chance. Has the FSM come down and spoken to humanity? Does he have any promises to make to me?
You have to look beyond your doubt and give the flying spagetti monster a chance. Your doubt is just a barrier you've erected between yourself and His noodly truth.
Originally posted by twhiteheadNow don't you ever wonder about Muslims and all the other religions out there? Do you ever think "maybe the Muslims have it right"? WHITEY
I think my observations are valid and I think that if you thought about it for a moment you would agree. Since we are playing at mind reading here I will ask why it is that so many theists are convinced that atheists are secret theists. It makes no sense at all. If I thought God existed what would I have to gain by pretending he doesn't? I can assure you ...[text shortened]... that is all you have in common with all the other Christians experiencing the same things.
They do have much of it right because Islam is a sister to judaism. There are many similarities and the Islamic picture of God is holy and ineffable etc etc just like Judaism. Where I think it is wrong is how the bridge between man and God is to be built. In Islam man gets to God via obedience , in hindhuism man gets to God via meditation , in judaism man gets to God by following the Torah , ....now ...and this is the BIG difference......In Christianity it's a story of how God builds a bridge to man....It's upside down compared to the other faiths. That's why it's the truth because it's not a man based religion but a God based one. It's about his plan for getting to us , not our plan for getting to him.
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Tell me why he's worth giving a chance. Has the FSM come down and spoken to humanity? Does he have any promises to make to me?
The Church of the Flying Spagetti Monster has many, many volumes which detail his power. He will not speak to individuals directly, but through them. There have also been many reported sightings.
He has the power to make whatever promises you desire, but asking "What's in it for me?" is not the way to find the truth of the Flying Spagetti Monster.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadDo you also realize that if you have most of it right then over 90% of Christians must have it wrong? WHITEY
I think my observations are valid and I think that if you thought about it for a moment you would agree. Since we are playing at mind reading here I will ask why it is that so many theists are convinced that atheists are secret theists. It makes no sense at all. If I thought God existed what would I have to gain by pretending he doesn't? I can assure you that is all you have in common with all the other Christians experiencing the same things.
I really have no idea what you mean. My theology is not freaky or way out , i'm actually quite mainstream in many ways. What does "have it wrong " mean? Are you refering to George and his gang? How do define "christian"? Is it a religion thing or something deeper ?
Originally posted by twhiteheadWhat they mean is there is no evidence that can stand up to scrutiny and has no other more parsimonious explanation WHITEY
No. I was suggesting that you have no way of knowing whether:
1. She made it up.
2. She did not report it exactly as it happened.
3. She believed it happened the ways she reported it but it did not in fact happen that way.
4. The person who told you the story did not tell it accurately ie made mistakes or elaborated beyond the truth.
etc.
As an exa ...[text shortened]... o evidence that can stand up to scrutiny and has no other more parsimonious explanation
It seems what is parsimonious is not clearly defined. Some think it made up , some think it didn't happen , some think it was just a coincidence etc etc.
I wonder why you think that this never happened? Parsimony would suggest that the chances are it would happen sometimes.
Originally posted by darthmixHe has the power to make whatever promises you desire,..
[b]Tell me why he's worth giving a chance. Has the FSM come down and spoken to humanity? Does he have any promises to make to me?
The Church of the Flying Spagetti Monster has many, many volumes which detail his power. He will not speak to individuals directly, but through them. There have also been many reported sightings.
He has the power to mak ...[text shortened]... king "What's in it for me?" is not the way to find the truth of the Flying Spagetti Monster.[/b]
RESPONSE- I didn't ask that. I want to know what promises he desires for me . Will he give me the living waters of life for example so that my heart shall be full of joy and love and I will know the truth and it will set me free. ??