I know how it sounds.....

Originally posted by darthmix
Originally posted by knightmeister
[b]I agree , but you are subtly drigfting away from the primary experience. I experience the keyboard in my subjective mind as real because it is real. Co-incidences are different because they require cognitive interpretation of a fact. Sensory information is more primary and immediate. I do not experience the keyb ...[text shortened]... more than I have to be "open" to the keyboard in order for me to experience it.

I felt the joy and security of knowing I'd be in heaven forever, and then I felt the terror and the worry of hell whenever I started to doubt DARTH

This doesn't sound like you were that secure in your faith and that you didn't know you'd be in heaven forever. If your experience was of God you would know that God would not send you to hell for doubting and that your terror was unfounded. What kind of God did you think he was? He sounds awful. Do you not realise that God's love runs so much deeper than this? If he would get so hung up about some kid having doubts then I'm in big trouble mate. I've got some news for you. The god you projected in your mind was not the real living God.

Originally posted by darthmix
Originally posted by knightmeister
[b]I agree , but you are subtly drigfting away from the primary experience. I experience the keyboard in my subjective mind as real because it is real. Co-incidences are different because they require cognitive interpretation of a fact. Sensory information is more primary and immediate. I do not experience the keyb ...[text shortened]... more than I have to be "open" to the keyboard in order for me to experience it.

My whole consciousness became a war in my head, between grace and the forces of darkness. It made me insane. For a while. DARTH

I'm sorry. Did you have a breakdown of some sort? If so I can identify with your expereince partly. I had one also , mine was to do with a crisis of my atheism . Ironic eh?

Originally posted by darthmix
Originally posted by knightmeister
[b]I agree , but you are subtly drigfting away from the primary experience. I experience the keyboard in my subjective mind as real because it is real. Co-incidences are different because they require cognitive interpretation of a fact. Sensory information is more primary and immediate. I do not experience the keyb ...[text shortened]... more than I have to be "open" to the keyboard in order for me to experience it.

Faith is dangerous, and trusting it is dangerous, because it gives you over to the greatest weakness in your own perceptual process DARTH

It depends what you have faith in. I have always had faith in love. As soon as God stops being a God of love that's it , I'm off. But there is truth in what you say . Adamant faith in the wrong thing is dangerous.

Originally posted by darthmix
Originally posted by knightmeister
[b]I agree , but you are subtly drigfting away from the primary experience. I experience the keyboard in my subjective mind as real because it is real. Co-incidences are different because they require cognitive interpretation of a fact. Sensory information is more primary and immediate. I do not experience the keyb ...[text shortened]... more than I have to be "open" to the keyboard in order for me to experience it.

It has occurred to me that God might exist. But if he truly exists, then I should not have to be open to him in order to experience him, any more than I have to be "open" to the keyboard in order for me to experience it DARTH

This is really good stuff. The keyboard is not something to which we are spiritually blinded . God is. We are cut off by our pride and illusions (Hindhu -maya / Buddhist- ego/ Christian -sin). You have no choice but to know the keyboard however , with God you have a choice. I also have had to make a choice how open I am to my wife's love , and that is also real. I also know that to be open to suffering and joy is a choice. I can numb myself from the world if I choose. I can sometimes not see the tiny beautiful things in life all around me. Why should I have to open myself? Because I am so easily closed.

This is good. No Christian should ever want anyone to be untrue to themselves. I would say this though. Often it's a question of what God you think you are supposed to believe in. Presented with your God I might not believe in him either. It's like St paul said about disarming all the myths about who God is. You must have heard CS Lewis's quote " The God I believe in is not the god you don't believe in" ??

What set me off, I think, wasn't God, but rather the message he had for me about myself and my sinful nature, and how accepting him meant rejecting myself. Everywhere around me was Satan's world, and the purpose of that world was to lead me away from Him - all things which intrinsically, overwhelmingly, did not feel wrong to me. I was also getting into my late teens at the time, starting to come to terms with the fact that I was gay, so now something inside me, something that I experienced as incredibly strong and which came so naturally to me, became something evil; it was something whose hidden purpose was to draw me away from the life God wanted me to lead. And yeah, it was breaking me a little.

And then the day came when that idea - that God would require me to be someone other than who I was inside in order for him to accept me - was just revealed as nonsense. And it came, oddly enough, when I started studying religion, its history, and its various controversies, and I started to have a better sense of it as a phenomena to which people are driven, and the existential fears and impulses which drive them. The political environment in which the Bible came to be written, by various abused, persecuted peoples desperate for some kind of fulfillment. That's when I started to explore, and that's when the facts of the world began to unfold for me: how utterly free we all are, and how mortal we are, and how we are in this life so totally at the mercy of ourselves and one another, and how we must struggle to make our own meaning in life.

I can never prove a negative, but I also can't express to you how utterly obvious it is to me that the religious sensibility of life isn't accurate; there is not a supernatural force who takes an active interest in us or gives our lives value. It's up to us to do that.

Originally posted by knightmeister
It depends what you have faith in. I have always had faith in love. As soon as God stops being a God of love that's it , I'm off. But there is truth in what you say . Adamant faith in the wrong thing is dangerous.

But I don't think an appreciation or revererence for love requires faith, or even God. You can accept God because he's about love, whereas I just accept love as a value in my life and this world.

And now I really, really have to go. For a while. Be back later.

Originally posted by darthmix
[b]This is good. No Christian should ever want anyone to be untrue to themselves. I would say this though. Often it's a question of what God you think you are supposed to believe in. Presented with your God I might not believe in him either. It's like St paul said about disarming all the myths about who God is. You must have heard CS Lewis's quote " The God ...[text shortened]... takes an active interest in us or gives our lives value. It's up to us to do that.

And then the day came when that idea - that God would require me to be someone other than who I was inside in order for him to accept me - was just revealed as nonsense. DARTH

And utter nonsense it was! You see this is the point. You were missold a perception of God that you thought you had to believe in. Firstly with God , there is no "in order to accept me" . He accepted you anyway. His love is completely unconditional. His love is so much bigger than that. If you had known more of who God is you would have known that nothing was going to stop him accepting you. The God you rejected doesn't exist. He's a fantasy and you think I believe in him. How mean did you really think God was? Did it not occur to you that God might have understood your struggle and sexuality even better than you did?

Originally posted by darthmix
Originally posted by knightmeister
[b]It depends what you have faith in. I have always had faith in love. As soon as God stops being a God of love that's it , I'm off. But there is truth in what you say . Adamant faith in the wrong thing is dangerous.

But I don't think an appreciation or revererence for love requires faith, or even God. You c ...[text shortened]... od because he's about love, whereas I just accept love as a value in my life and this world.[/b]

But I don't think an appreciation or revererence for love requires faith, or even God. DARTH

This is true enough. But faith in love and the victory of love over might is faith in God by proxy.

Originally posted by darthmix
[b]This is good. No Christian should ever want anyone to be untrue to themselves. I would say this though. Often it's a question of what God you think you are supposed to believe in. Presented with your God I might not believe in him either. It's like St paul said about disarming all the myths about who God is. You must have heard CS Lewis's quote " The God ...[text shortened]... takes an active interest in us or gives our lives value. It's up to us to do that.

I can never prove a negative, but I also can't express to you how utterly obvious it is to me that the religious sensibility of life isn't accurate; there is not a supernatural force who takes an active interest in us or gives our lives value. It's up to us to do that. DARTH

You think God is just a matter of sitting back and enjoying the ride? Faith in Christ is the most challenging and taxing thing I know of. I also cannot express to you how utterly convinced I am that this god that was in your head was not God himself. Infact I am glad you left whatever faith you had. Religion makes me so angry sometimes.

Originally posted by darthmix
And now I really, really have to go. For a while. Be back later.

Yeah , wise move , it is late. I enjoyed our chat , I felt I learned something from your experience. You sound committed to the cause of love so who am I to argue with that. To be honest I would feel more at home with you than some G.W crony planning war in the name of Jesus. (Yuk!)

I'm not sure where you are but here it's bed time ZZZZZZZZZ

This conversation seems to be getting dangerously close to becoming meaningless. Obviously that will be for the two of you to decide...

Knight, please consider...is there any religious experience darth could have expressed to you that you would not immediately discount as "not a true representation of your God"? The fact that he left his faith means that you simply cannot admit he had been touched by your God without utterly changing your own view of God.

This is always very frustrating for me as I often make reference to the fact i was once a Christian and have since become an athiest. The theist seems to have no choice, but to deny that my chriatianity was ever real...that I was ever "truly saved".

Pointless...

Originally posted by TheSkipper
This conversation seems to be getting dangerously close to becoming meaningless. Obviously that will be for the two of you to decide...

Knight, please consider...is there any religious experience darth could have expressed to you that you would not immediately discount as "not a true representation of your God"? The fact that he left his faith means ...[text shortened]... to deny that my chriatianity was ever real...that I was ever "truly saved".

Pointless...

...is there any religious experience darth could have expressed to you that you would not immediately discount as "not a true representation of your God"? The fact that he left his faith means that you simply cannot admit he had been touched by your God without utterly changing your own view of God. SKIPPER

It's very simple Skip , once someone starts expressing their experience of God I try to compare it with my own and then I decide how similar it is. Often Atheists say that they have experienced the same thing and know what Christians are on about and have tasted the saving love of Christ but always when I dig deeper I find holes start to appear. It is possible though that darth was touched by God but it was not sufficient to hold him into the faith. However , he didn't sound very assured and seemed to not understand a crucial aspect of God's character (unconditional love and acceptance).

You see if someone says they have tasted fresh ground coffee but then they start describing something that begins to sound like poor quality tea what is one to think?

The plain fact is that I believe that if someone has truely met the living God and allowed him in then they can never be the same again. They may run from him but they can't escape forever.

Darths perception of God was certainly flawed if he thought that by doubting him he was risking hell.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
This conversation seems to be getting dangerously close to becoming meaningless. Obviously that will be for the two of you to decide...

Knight, please consider...is there any religious experience darth could have expressed to you that you would not immediately discount as "not a true representation of your God"? The fact that he left his faith means ...[text shortened]... to deny that my chriatianity was ever real...that I was ever "truly saved".

Pointless...

This is always very frustrating for me as I often make reference to the fact i was once a Christian and have since become an athiest. The theist seems to have no choice, but to deny that my chriatianity was ever real...that I was ever "truly saved". SKIPPER

Your Christian faith might have been real (although in most of these cases I find that it's not) and you may be infact a lapsed Christian who has talked himself into being an Atheist. If you had indeed handed your life over to the living Christ and allowed the Holy Spirit control over your life then you could easily be saved. If you were a Christian you will know the theology about being "sealed in the spirit" for the day of redemption. This is God's promise to anyone who has truely given their heart over to him that he will finish the work he has started , EVEN if the person turns away from him. He WILL find a way.

If this is true of your life then God will be working hard in the background of your life to bring you back. However , until you share your experience it's hard to tell . I would not want to diminish your past faith and I do not mean to diminish Darth's past faith . I'm simply pointing out where I think there are flaws or misperceptions. This is not because I have always perceived God correctly , infact the opposite is true. This is how I know how easy it is to think God is something that he is not.