1. Subscriberjosephw
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    03 May '10 10:55
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    Try to be honest to myself and others while recognizing the limitations of my knowledge and understanding.
    With limitations come imperfection.

    It's what the Bible calls sin.

    I'm not pointing the finger at you. God knows what a sinner I am.


    Acts 10:34 - Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    Ego has no place in the Christian's heart.
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    03 May '10 13:51
    Originally posted by josephw
    With limitations come imperfection.

    It's what the Bible calls sin.

    I'm not pointing the finger at you. God knows what a sinner I am.


    Acts 10:34 - Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no [b]respecter
    of persons:

    Ego has no place in the Christian's heart.[/b]
    The difference is that you feel qualified to tell the rest of us how wrong we are. Isn't pride a sin? You can state your beliefs without claiming everyone else is inferior. (I have my beliefs but I know that insisting that others are wrong will not propagate my ideas. In fact, it is likely to have the opposite result. Teach by example - if you have anything worth teaching.)
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    03 May '10 14:132 edits
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+11&version=KJV

    [quote]And when the people complained, it displeased the LORD: and the LORD heard it; and his anger was kindled; and the fire of the LORD burnt among them, and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp.

    2And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses prayed unto
    ".

    So a loving, caring, forgiving God creates disaster, evil and calamity?[/b]
    =====================================
    Those people were traveling around the desert for years. Hunger, thirst, malnutrition, diseases, weariness... All that they did was complaining. Maybe about the lack of food and water. Maybe about the endless wandering that in normal conditions would take something like a month. But either they way they just complained. And for that they had to be burnt to death.
    If He really was compassionate wouldn't he realized that complaining was only to be expected at those conditions?
    ========================================


    In Deuteronomy 8 Moses reviews to the Hebrews thier experience of wandering in the wilderness for 40 years. He reminds them of how God took care of them:

    "Your clothing did not wear out from upon you, nor did your foot swell these forty years." (8:4)

    He fed them with manna, preserved their clothing, He provided for them even during this time of discipline.

    Deuteronomy 29:5 - "And I have led you forty years in the wilderness; your clothing did not wear out from upon you, nor did your sandal wear out from upon your foot."

    Jehovah thier God miraculously provided for and preserved His people during those 40 years of discipline.

    Not only so, but this was an extra 40 years of warning to the Canaanites to stop their sins. So it was also an act of leniency and mercy to give further opportunity for the Canaanites to repent.

    They could see the judgment of God which was coming for 40 years.
  4. Standard memberadam warlock
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    03 May '10 14:33
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]=====================================
    Those people were traveling around the desert for years. Hunger, thirst, malnutrition, diseases, weariness... All that they did was complaining. Maybe about the lack of food and water. Maybe about the endless wandering that in normal conditions would take something like a month. But either they way they just com ...[text shortened]... anaanites to repent.

    They could see the judgment of God which was coming for 40 years.
    Nevertheless the people complained and got burnt to death for it.
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    03 May '10 15:371 edit
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    Nevertheless the people complained and got burnt to death for it.
    ===========================
    Nevertheless the people complained and got burnt to death for it.
    ===========================


    There were instances of God's judgment. There's no question about that.

    There were also many instructive instances of His salvation from judgment. For example, the murmering which led to the people being bitten by poisoness serpents. But when anyone looked at the brass serpent lifted up on a pole, they were healed.

    Jesus refered to this incident as typology of His death for redemption on the cross:

    "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that everyone who believes into Him may have eternal life." (John 3:14,15)

    I like to study the instances of judgment to see how they instruct about God's overall plan of salvation. I find this infinitely more satisfactory then simply isolating cases from the whole biblical context.

    All these things happened as examples to the believers of God's salvation.

    Generally speaking, much of the Old Testament lays the groundwork for an understanding of the holy hatred for sin. Upon this backround of God's righteous judgment against it, some of us can better appreciate what it meant for the Father to cause divine judgment to fall upon the Son for the sins of the world.

    "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that everyone who believes into Him may have eternal life." (John 3:14,15)
  6. Standard memberadam warlock
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    03 May '10 20:28
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]===========================
    Nevertheless the people complained and got burnt to death for it.
    ===========================


    There were instances of God's judgment. There's no question about that.

    There were also many instructive instances of His salvation from judgment. For example, the murmering which led to the people b ...[text shortened]... fted up, that everyone who believes into Him may have eternal life." (John 3:14,15)[/b][/b]
    What was the righteous judgment when the 42 children were teared to pieces by the two bears?
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    03 May '10 22:161 edit
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    What was the righteous judgment when the 42 children were teared to pieces by the two bears?
    Copied with permission from A Christian Think Tank.

    ====================================
    This event is often construed very negatively:

    "How can I believe in a God who would send bears to devour little children for innocently teasing an old man whose appearance probably was unusual even for that day" (HSOBX)

    But a closer look at the passage show that most of the assumptions in that position are false, and that other elements (not explicit in the words, but present in the historical situation) illumine the situation.


    First, the passage itself:

    "He went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, "Go away, baldhead! Go away, baldhead!" 24 When he turned around and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

    Now, let's look at some of the elements of the historical background, and the various players in the event:


    1. First of all, they weren't "little kids"!

    "'Little children' is an unfortunate translation. The Hebrew expression neurim qetannim is best rendered 'young lads' or 'young men.' From numerous examples where ages are specified in the Old Testament, we know that these were boys from twelve to thirty years old. One of these words described Isaac at his sacrifice in Genesis 22:12, when he was easily in his early twenties. It described Joseph in Genesis 37:2 when he was seventeen years old. In fact, the same word described army men in 1 Kings 20:14-15...these are young men ages between twelve and thirty." [HSOBX]

    2. Elisha wasn't "old"--he was the same age as they were!
    "But was Elisha an old man short on patience and a sense of humor? This charge is also distorted, for Elisha can hardly have been more than twenty-five when this incident happened. He lived nearly sixty years after this..." [HSOBX]

    3. Elisha had JUST FINISHED doing a mercy-miracle for the entire city of nearby Jericho!!!!
    "The chapter closes with two miracles of Elisha. These immediately established the character of his ministry--his would be a helping ministry to those in need, but one that would brook no disrespect for God and his earthly representatives. In the case of Jericho, though the city had been rebuilt (with difficulty) in the days of Ahab (1 Kings 16:34, q.v.), it had remained unproductive. Apparently the water still lay under Joshua's curse (cf. Josh 6:26), so that both citizenry and land suffered greatly (v. 19). Elisha's miracle fully removed the age-old judgment, thus allowing a new era to dawn on this area (vv. 20-22). Interestingly Elisha wrought the cure through means supplied by the people of Jericho so that their faith might be strengthened through submission and active participation in God's cleansing work. (EBCOT)

    4. This event took place around a cult city (somewhere between Bethel and Jericho, a distance of aproximately 10 miles), a center of anti-YHWH worship:
    "Elisha's sweet memories of Jericho received a souring touch at Bethel (v. 23). The public insult against Elisha was aimed ultimately at the God whom he represented. Indeed Elisha's whole prophetic ministry was in jeopardy; therefore the taunt had to be dealt with decisively. The sudden arrival of the two bears who mauled forty-two youths to death would serve as both an awful sentence on unbelievers--and thus, too, on Jeroboam's cult city--and a published reminder that blasphemy against the true God and his program would be met with swift and certain consequences (v. 24)." [EBCOT]

    5. The harmless "teasing" was hardly that--they were direct confrontation between the forces of Baal and the prophet of YHWH that had just healed the water supply (casting doubt on the power and beneficence of Baal!). This was a mass demonstration (if 42 were mauled, how many people were in the crowd to begin with? 50? 100? 400?).:
    "As Elisha was traveling from Jericho to Bethel several dozen youths (young men, not children) confronted him. Perhaps they were young false prophets of Baal. Their jeering, recorded in the slang of their day, implied that if Elisha were a great prophet of the Lord, as Elijah was, he should go on up into heaven as Elijah reportedly had done. The epithet baldhead may allude to lepers who had to shave their heads and were considered detestable outcasts. Or it may simply have been a form of scorn, for baldness was undesirable (cf. Isa. 3:17, 24). Since it was customary for men to cover their heads, the young men probably could not tell if Elisha was bald or not. They regarded God's prophet with contempt....Elisha then called down a curse on the villains. This cursing stemmed not from Elisha pride but from their disrespect for the Lord as reflected in their treatment of His spokesman (cf. 1:9-14). Again God used wild animals to execute His judgment (cf., e.g., 1 Kings 13:24). That 42 men were mauled by the two bears suggests that a mass demonstration had been organized against God and Elisha." [Bible Knowledge Commentary]

    6. There may have been elements of public safety involved:
    "A careful study of this incident in context shows that it was far more serious than a "mild personal offense." It was a situation of serious public danger, quite as grave as the large youth gangs that roam the ghetto sections of our modern American cities. If these young hoodlums were ranging about in packs of fifty or more, derisive towards respectable adults and ready to mock even a well-known man of God, there is no telling what violence they might have inflicted on the citizenry of the religious center of the kingdom of Israel (as Bethel was), had they been allowed to continue their riotous course. " [EBD]

    7. Elisha didn't actually call out the bears--he merely pronounced judgment on these demonstrators. God decided what form the response took:
    "Perhaps it was for this reason that God saw fit to put forty-two of them to death in this spectacular fashion (there is no evidence that Elisha himself, in imposing a curse, prayed for this specific mode of punishment), in order to strike terror into other youth gangs that were infesting the city and to make them realize that neither Yahweh Himself nor any of His anointed prophets were to be threatened or treated with contempt." [EBD]

    8. This curse/judgment was part of the covenant stipulations--it was a reminder of Israel's responsibilities (and opportunities for blessings, as well):
    "Elisha pronounced a curse similar to the covenant curse of Lev 26:21-22. The result gave warning of the judgment that would come on the entire nation should it persist in disobedience and apostasy (see 2Ch 36:16). Thus Elisha's first acts were indicative of his ministry that would follow: God's covenant blessings would come to those who looked to him (vv. 19-22), but God's covenant curses would fall on those who turned away from him. [NIV Study Bible notes, in loc.]
    "If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22 I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted." (Lev 26.21f)


    9. This visible display of YHWH's power and reality (like the previous display of His kindness and activity for them) was designed to avert a far greater calamity:
    "The savagery of wild animals was brutal enough, but it was mild compared to the legendary cruelty of the Assyrians who would appear to complete God's judgment in 722 BC The disastrous fall of Samaria would have been avoided had the people repented after the bear attack and the increasingly sever divine judgments that followed it. But instead of turning back to God, Israel, as would Judah in a later day, 'mocked God's messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the wrath of the LORD was arounsed against his people and there was no remedy' (2 Chron 36:16)" [HSOBX]

    So, this was hardly the atrocity that it is often construed as--the historical data casts the event into a TOTALLY different light. It WAS a very significant event for the religious fortune (and therefore, future welfare) of the Northern Kingdom...and it called for decisive revelation from God about the severity of the people's condition and situation...
    =======================================
  8. Standard memberadam warlock
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    03 May '10 22:441 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Copied with permission from A Christian Think Tank.

    [b]====================================

    This event is often construed very negatively:

    "How can I believe in a God who would send bears to devour little children for innocently teasing an old man whose appearance probably was unusual even for that day" (HSOBX)

    But a closer look at the pa ==================================[/b][/b]
    1 - Ok
    2 - It doesn't matter.
    3 - So after doing mercy-miracle he curses on some "young lads" and gets them teared to pieces by two bears. Maybe he was out of mercy!
    4 - Since they were unbelievers it's ok to maul them? It's that what you're saying?
    5 - Honestly! Some is possible synonym to 400 people? Really?!
    6 - Launching to wild bears on a possible crowd of 44 people (as you put it) is all for public safety? How so?
    7 - No one ever said Elijah called the bears. Everybody's aware that who sent the bears to tear apart the 42 children was God. And to tell honestly it only shows the total immorality of God. Out of spite he mauls 42 children that were making fun of a bald guy? Seriously!
    8 - So you're God is a petty, bully? I guess that makes it alright then.
    9 - And not only that but he was just showing off. To show is immense power and love he decides to maul on 42 children.

    But just to make it sure: are you apologizing this incident because the people that were mauled were non-believers. Is that really what you're doing?

    Edit: What about stoning disobedient sons to death? What about Jesus condoning it? What's the righteous justification for it? I can't wait for your answer.
  9. Subscriberjosephw
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    03 May '10 23:03
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    The difference is that you feel qualified to tell the rest of us how wrong we are. Isn't pride a sin? You can state your beliefs without claiming everyone else is inferior. (I have my beliefs but I know that insisting that others are wrong will not propagate my ideas. In fact, it is likely to have the opposite result. Teach by example - if you have anything worth teaching.)
    Hold on a minute there.

    Did you read your own posts?

    This here is a debate. We state our beliefs, provide support for them, and move on.

    And how is it that you can tell me how I "feel"? Just be sure of one thing, I don't have any more pride than you or any one else around here.

    Sure, I consider myself qualified to teach the Bible. So what?! What does that matter around here? I wouldn't presume to lecture certain others about what they know, but you guys don't know squat about the meaning of the scriptures. If you did you wouldn't say the things you do. Besides, it's incredibly immature to insult a persons faith the way you do. Not that I'm perfect.

    You should examine yourself a little closer. You and the others go out of your way to criticise, ridicule, and belittle those of us who profess faith in Jesus Christ, and our God, but you will rarely hear one of us call you names. Can't you see the hypocrisy?
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    03 May '10 23:36
    Originally posted by josephw
    Hold on a minute there.

    Did you read your own posts?

    This here is a debate. We state our beliefs, provide support for them, and move on.

    And how is it that you can tell me how I "feel"? Just be sure of one thing, I don't have any more pride than you or any one else around here.

    Sure, I consider myself qualified to teach the Bible. So what?! What ...[text shortened]... ur God, but you will rarely hear one of us call you names. Can't you see the hypocrisy?
    You don't understand what I'm saying so you react with anger. Congratulations, you've driven me away.
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    04 May '10 00:342 edits
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    1 - Ok
    2 - It doesn't matter.
    3 - So after doing mercy-miracle he curses on some "young lads" and gets them teared to pieces by two bears. Maybe he was out of mercy!
    4 - Since they were unbelievers it's ok to maul them? It's that what you're saying?
    5 - Honestly! Some is possible synonym to 400 people? Really?!
    6 - Launching to wild bears on a poss ondoning it? What's the righteous justification for it? I can't wait for your answer.
    ======================================
    What about stoning disobedient sons to death? What about Jesus condoning it? What's the righteous justification for it? I can't wait for your answer.
    ===========================================


    Jesus and stoning -

    In the John 8 with the woman caught in the act of adultery, what did Jesus do ?

    Did Jesus encourge the people to stone the woman ? He only did so if there were anyone qualified to be without sin - "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone at her." (John 8:7)

    From the older ones to the youngest every single person in the mob was self convicted dropped their stones and withdrew. Their own consciences testified that they were in no position to judge the woman.

    The Jesus that Adam Worlock wants to teach should have not only joined in the stoning but taken the lead to do so. He alone was without sin and qualified.

    "And Jesus stood up and said to her, Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you? And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn you; go and from now on sin no more." (John 8:10,11)

    So much for Jesus condoning a stoning.
  12. Subscriberjosephw
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    04 May '10 01:11
    Originally posted by TerrierJack
    You don't understand what I'm saying so you react with anger. Congratulations, you've driven me away.
    You don't understand what I'm saying so you make accusations. I'm not angry at all.

    You're not being driven away, you're running away.
  13. Standard membercaissad4
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    04 May '10 01:52
    Originally posted by josephw
    In other words, if God is so evil why aren't you dead.
    Sadism. Dead men would deprive your god of the pleasure of torture. Maybe your god is from a culture similar to Klingon.
  14. Subscriberjosephw
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    04 May '10 02:06
    Originally posted by caissad4
    Sadism. Dead men would deprive your god of the pleasure of torture. Maybe your god is from a culture similar to Klingon.
    What an imagination!

    Without Jesus Christ as one's Lord and saviour, one is as good as dead already.
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    04 May '10 02:32
    Originally posted by josephw
    Without Jesus Christ as one's Lord and saviour, one is as good as dead already.
    No wonder you fill your life with something. I am very much alive. But if I, like you, could not feel alive without a doctrine - and felt "as good as dead already" - perhaps I would be tempted to fill the emptiness like you do. But it's moot. Because this life, in this world, offers so much. It's wonderful to be alive. If you need Christ to feel the same as people like me, I think that's ok, as long as you don't impose yourself on others.
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