1. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    04 May '10 06:47
    Originally posted by FMF
    No wonder you fill your life with something. I am very much alive. But if I, like you, could not feel alive without a doctrine - and felt "as good as dead already" - perhaps I would be tempted to fill the emptiness like you do. But it's moot. Because this life, in this world, offers so much. It's wonderful to be alive. If you need Christ to feel the same as people like me, I think that's ok, as long as you don't impose yourself on others.
    as long as you dont impose your beliefs on others.
  2. Joined
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    04 May '10 07:19
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    as long as you dont impose your beliefs on others.
    Isn't that what I said?
  3. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    04 May '10 08:24
    Originally posted by FMF
    Isn't that what I said?
    Yes it is. I thought it was worth repeating verbatim. (as I completely agree with that notion)
  4. Standard memberadam warlock
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    04 May '10 12:32
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]======================================
    What about stoning disobedient sons to death? What about Jesus condoning it? What's the righteous justification for it? I can't wait for your answer.
    ===========================================


    Jesus and stoning -

    In the John 8 with the woman caught in the act of adultery, what did Jesus do ?

    ...[text shortened]... d from now on sin no more." (John 8:10,11) [/b]

    So much for Jesus condoning a stoning.[/b]
    I said that Jesus condoned stoning disobedient sons. Don't pretend you didn't understand what I said.

    What's the righteous reason for Jesus condoning the stoning of disobedient children?
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    04 May '10 13:471 edit
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    I said that Jesus condoned stoning disobedient sons. Don't pretend you didn't understand what I said.

    What's the righteous reason for Jesus condoning the stoning of disobedient children?
    ==============================
    I said that Jesus condoned stoning disobedient sons. Don't pretend you didn't understand what I said.

    What's the righteous reason for Jesus condoning the stoning of disobedient children?
    ====================================


    Provide me a reference. Where did you read about Jesus condoning the stoning of disobedient children?

    And while you are at it, with your outrage with the death of children you must surely be a strong Right To Life advocate.

    Tell us, how then do you feel about the millions of abortions performed each year ? Are you Pro Life or Pro Choice ?
  6. Standard memberadam warlock
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    04 May '10 14:301 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]==============================
    I said that Jesus condoned stoning disobedient sons. Don't pretend you didn't understand what I said.

    What's the righteous reason for Jesus condoning the stoning of disobedient children?
    ====================================


    Provide me a reference. Where did you read about Jesus condoning the stoning ...[text shortened]... feel about the millions of abortions performed each year ? Are you Pro Life or Pro Choice ?[/b]
    I've done in this thread already, but here it goes again:

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+21%3A18-21&version=KJV

    18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
    19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
    20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
    21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.


    And this is what Jesus has to say about this:
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+15&version=KJV

    4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
    5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
    6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.


    What I think about abortion: I think that if Doctors discuss where life begin and have wildly differing opinions I'm no one what to say when it starts or when it doesn't start.
    But my views on my abortion are just a very big case of cognitive dissonance: On one hand I think that women should be able to decide, but on most cases I just don't agree.

    YouTube these two guys said it very well.

    I'm strong advocate to the right of Being a Responsible Human Being and basically things should be decided case by case and not on some kind of dogmatic view of the issue.
  7. Standard memberadam warlock
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    04 May '10 15:11
    This guyYouTube at about the 3:20 mark is also clearly over reacting.
    Blowing people up for saying God damn it!

    Lulz
  8. Joined
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    04 May '10 15:352 edits
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    I've done in this thread already, but here it goes again:

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+21%3A18-21&version=KJV

    [quote]18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
    19Then shall hi y things should be decided case by case and not on some kind of dogmatic view of the issue.
    ===================================
    18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
    19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
    20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
    21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
    =======================================


    What you are not indicating is that ALONG with this statute there were sin offerings, trespass offerings, and the prescribed offerings for sins of all kinds.

    And I am sure that many a Jewish parent believed in these offerings to remedy the offenses of thier children. Stoning was not the only remedy.

    ============================
    And this is what Jesus has to say about this:
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+15&version=KJV


    4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
    5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
    6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
    ====================================


    I think John chapter 8 is much more a window in Jesus' attitude about a stoning. This passage, is more of a discussion on the hypocrisy of the religionists then His endorsement to do as much stonings as possible of bad children.

    Once again Adam, your way of reading the New Testament seems warped to me.

    The standard passage contrasting the teaching of Jesus with the Old Testament teaching of stoning is in John chapter 8. And there, Jesus having the full right TO stone, did not. Rather, He challenged anyone else who thought they were in a position to judge the one to be stoned should lead the charge.

    Furthermore, I cannot prove it, but I think when He stooped to write in the sand, He may have been writing the names of the men who had commited adultery with the woman in the past. Maybe some of them were standing there in the crowd.

    Admitedly, this is speculation. We don't know what He was writing.

    ====================================
    What I think about abortion: I think that if Doctors discuss where life begin and have wildly differing opinions I'm no one what to say when it starts or when it doesn't start.
    But my views on my abortion are just a very big case of cognitive dissonance: On one hand I think that women should be able to decide, but on most cases I just don't agree.
    ========================================


    In other words, you believe that there may be special circumstances which justify the abortion.

    So if you believe that that is true for man, what is wrong with me believing the same for God the Creator ?


    ========================
    YouTube these two guys said it very well.

    I'm strong advocate to the right of Being a Responsible Human Being and basically things should be decided case by case and not on some kind of dogmatic view of the issue.
    ====================================


    Then on a case by case basis, I also think the God was justified to send two bears upon the gang of youths opposing His administration through Elisha the prophet.

    I would be suspicious of a book which is suppose to be the word of God, if it only contained things that I approved of or liked.
  9. Subscriberjosephw
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    04 May '10 16:28
    Originally posted by FMF
    No wonder you fill your life with something. I am very much alive. But if I, like you, could not feel alive without a doctrine - and felt "as good as dead already" - perhaps I would be tempted to fill the emptiness like you do. But it's moot. Because this life, in this world, offers so much. It's wonderful to be alive. If you need Christ to feel the same as people like me, I think that's ok, as long as you don't impose yourself on others.
    Your post gives away your obvious bias and rejection of Christ.

    I said one was as good as dead without Christ. I have Christ and I have His life. I have eternal life.

    You think it's wonderful to be alive? You must be wearing blinders. Tell it to the billions who suffer unimaginable pain and anguish and starvation everyday.

    Get it into context. My life is rich and full. I live in a veritable paradise. I have everything I need and most everything I want. If I want it I can get it.

    Get it into context. My post was addressed to a specific issue. You missed the point. I'm glad you're having such a wonderful life. Do you know when it will end?
  10. Standard memberavalanchethecat
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    04 May '10 17:22
    Originally posted by josephw
    Your post gives away your obvious bias and rejection of Christ.

    I said one was as good as dead without Christ. I have Christ and I have His life. I have eternal life.

    You think it's wonderful to be alive? You must be wearing blinders. Tell it to the billions who suffer unimaginable pain and anguish and starvation everyday.

    Get it into context. My l ...[text shortened]... missed the point. I'm glad you're having such a wonderful life. Do you know when it will end?
    Sounds suspiciously like pride dude...
  11. Standard memberadam warlock
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    04 May '10 19:421 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    ===================================
    18If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
    19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of is suppose to be the word of God, if it only contained things that I approved of or liked.
    I never said that it was the only solution, did I? If you think that the fact that there were more options available really makes it better,that's your problem. The thing is that stoning children to death was a viable option. And I just hope that people didn't practice it many times.

    Again I'm not talking about stoning in general. What you think or not think about what Jesus thought has no relevance in this discussion: you don't know me nor you do you have any first hand account of what his thoughts were. Pretty much all we have is the Bible, and turning to the other side whenever Jesus isn't that laudable isn't very honest in my opinion.
    My way of reading the Bible is reading it all and not only the good stuff. Maybe this is warped for you, but it isn't for me.

    Killing 42 children, burning people to death, ending almost all of the Earth's population aren't abortions you know. Demanding the genocide of the Amekelites and Canaanites isn't an abortion. All of this morally speaking is much more vile than an abortion.

    What case by case basis are you talking about? Can you point out a case where you think that God's actions or Jesus actions were in the wrong?
    Why do you think that it was justified? Because they were non believers? Are you saying that non believers should be put to death? And while we're at it: what do you think about shooting abortion doctors?

    Ps: I'll be off for a long time as of tomorrow but when I get back I'll answer to you.
  12. Joined
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    04 May '10 22:544 edits
    Originally posted by adam warlock
    I never said that it was the only solution, did I? If you think that the fact that there were more options available really makes it better,that's your problem. The thing is that stoning children to death was a viable option. And I just hope that people didn't practice it many times.

    Again I'm not talking about stoning in general. What you think or n I'll be off for a long time as of tomorrow but when I get back I'll answer to you.
    ====================================
    I never said that it was the only solution, did I? If you think that the fact that there were more options available really makes it better,that's your problem.
    ========================================


    Why is it my problem? I am not living today under the law of Moses.

    Its not a problem at all. Sorry.

    ===============================
    The thing is that stoning children to death was a viable option. And I just hope that people didn't practice it many times.
    ======================================


    I don't see any reason to believe they loved their children less then people do today. A difference may be that they were eyewitnesses to God performing a most stupendous liberation of a nation.

    "To him to whom much is given, much will be expected" They were expected to bring their children up in the light of this rare miraculous historical Exodus." That probably has much to do with the strictness of the matter.

    "For ask now regarding the former days, which were before you, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from one end of heaven to the other, Has anything as great as this ever happened, or has anything like this ever been heard of ?

    Has a people ever heard the voice of God speaking from the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and lived?

    Has God ever ventured to go and take to Himself a nation from the midst of another nation by trials, by signs and wonders, and nu wat and a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and by great terrors, like all that Jehovah your God did FOR YOU in Egypt before your eyes ? [my emphasis]

    You were shown these things that you might know that is is Jehovah who is God, there is no other besides Him." (Deut. 4:32-35)


    The unique position of a nation personally delivered by the God of this universe with great signs and wonders placedd Israel also in a great position of responsibility. This explains much of the strictness of the ordinances they received on raising their children accordingly.

    ==========================
    Again I'm not talking about stoning in general. What you think or not think about what Jesus thought has no relevance in this discussion: you don't know me nor you do you have any first hand account of what his thoughts were.
    ============================


    And neither do you know me. I don't think I need to say more about stoning. You are welcomed to have another opinion about it. However, if you are an atheist I wonder where you derive your sense of moral outrage in an ultimate sense.

    It would not be an atheist's expectation that there would be any ultimate accountability anyway. Atheists only expect every one, child stoner or otherwise, to peacefully dissolve into the dust of the earth. There is no last judgment and really no final accountability for crimes.

    IF you are not an atheist then you seem to be a militant permissivist for whom exceution of a person's offspring would never be appropriate. I am thankful that the Bible does not contain only things that I like to hear. That would make me suspicious that maybe it is not the word of God.

    ===================================
    Pretty much all we have is the Bible, and turning to the other side whenever Jesus isn't that laudable isn't very honest in my opinion.
    My way of reading the Bible is reading it all and not only the good stuff. Maybe this is warped for you, but it isn't for me.
    ===============================


    You haven't demonstrated to me that you read it all. Perhaps you mistake yourself for the person you want to be.

    ========================
    Killing 42 children, burning people to death, ending almost all of the Earth's population aren't abortions you know. Demanding the genocide of the Amekelites and Canaanites isn't an abortion. All of this morally speaking is much more vile than an abortion.
    ===========================


    In each case it probably was like an act to save the mother. It doesn't occur to you that a gangrene like immorality could threaten the human race as a whole.

    What do you think of the book of Jonah ? Does it show God eager to destroy a sinful nation or reluctant to have to go to those severe measures?

    Think of it. One entire Old Testament book dedicated to God's eagerness to pardon a repentant nation to the angst of the Israelite prophet Jonah.

    =========================
    What case by case basis are you talking about?
    ============================


    The forty two young people between ages of 12 and 30 who came out of the town which opposed Jehovah mocking God's prophet.

    As the article said, Elisha only called down a curse. God specified how it would take place ... a case by case incident of divine judgment.

    ========================
    Can you point out a case where you think that God's actions or Jesus actions were in the wrong?
    ============================


    No. I can point out cases which as of yet I may not understand as deeply as I would like. When this happens I don't jump to the occasion to fault God, slandering, and accusing God. I put it on the back burner until such time greater spritual maturity enlightens me.

    Case by case meant that it that particular incident, God fulfilled His promise to use wild animals to discipline the rebels.

    You supposedly read the article I pasted in.

    ========================
    Why do you think that it was justified? Because they were non believers? Are you saying that non believers should be put to death?
    ============================


    Re -read the ariticle I pasted in.

    =========================
    And while we're at it: what do you think about shooting abortion doctors?
    =========================


    Since the Bible says that "the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God," (James 1:20) I condemn such angry shootings.

    Human government is also God's idea (Romans 13). And the legal government should run its course. I would regard this as a hate crime in my country.
  13. Standard memberadam warlock
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    04 May '10 23:472 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]====================================
    I never said that it was the only solution, did I? If you think that the fact that there were more options available really makes it better,that's your problem.
    ========================================


    Why is it my problem? I am not living today under the law of Moses.

    Its not a problem at all. Sorr run its course. I would regard this as a hate crime in my country.[/b]
    It is your problem because you are obviously entering the path of a very visible double standard: killing unborn children (and the debate still rages on when life really begins) is bad but killing children is justified, burning people to death because they protested is justified, and stoning children to death is justified.

    And I also don't see any reason to believe that they loved their children any less than today. All of that is of course irrelevant because it was the law of God that disobedient children should be stoned to death.
    Just the fact that this is a possibility, a possibility that was condoned by Jesus, tells a lot on the supposed morality of the Bible and on the supposed mega-moral man that was Jesus. Once again: he brought eternal suffering into the equation (and by golly he delighted himself with it) and his good teachings were nothing of radically new: Confucius, Laozi and Buddha all preceded him.
    And the fact that you try to justify the demand that disobedient children should be put to death by stoning by their on parents on the grounds of the unique position of the nation only makes me see you as having a very distorted sense of morality.

    Where do I derive my sense of morality? No doubt from having been raised on a Christian background. No doubt from growing up watching cartoons where were people unselfish and self-sacrificing. No doubt from growing up reading books about people that were all about the common good.
    No doubt from a human tradition that goes way back (actually way back from Christianity) where people tried to look further than their closest ones and still see humanity.

    The only judgment I fear is my own: when I'm about to close my eyes I just want to be a little bit happy about myself and what I tried to do.

    It is really patronizing of you to think that morality only comes from Christianity, you know? Not only patronizing but fundamentalist. And if you truly are against religious fundamentalist you should try and change that outlook. Unlike what's on the Bible a great number of people aren't non believers out of ignorance you know? A lot of non believers are so due to a process of rational inquiry.

    Other than the fact of telling you stuff that's on the Bible that you clearly didn't know about and even said that you doubt that was on the Bible, I guess I haven't showed you that I've read the whole Bible. Take it as you want, cause honestly arguing about this is totally void of any real value.

    You know what a case by case basis is? You tried to turn the tables on me but you just failed. I can give you some situations where I agree to an abortion, and I also can give you some situations were I don't agree with an abortion. If you truly had went to a case by case analysis of the Bible I'd guess you'd have some objections to present. I'd guess you'd think that sometimes God and Jesus were just wrong. But this is what you have to say:

    No. I can point out cases which as of yet I may not understand as deeply as I would like. When this happens I don't jump to the occasion to fault God, slandering, and accusing God. I put it on the back burner until such time greater spritual maturity enlightens me.

    Which is basically equivalent to saying that whenever something bothers on the Bible you just stop thinking about it until somehow, someway you can just shrug it off and accept it.

    If your God has to send two bears to tear 42 children to pieces, how loving is He?
    If your God orders the total and complete annihilation of the Amekelites (just because their very distant ancestors had a fight with Moses) and punishes Saul when he leaves their king and some animals alive, how loving is He?

    Why does your God order the killing of raped women for not screaming loud enough?
    Why does your God that says that He creates everything can't love homosexuals?
    Why does your God brags about his constants bouts of bravado and machismo?
    Why does your God demands total subjugation and constant self-humiliation?

    If this is truly a God that exists I just say that he has a lot of explaining to do. A real lot of explaining to do.
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    04 May '10 23:591 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    My life is rich and full. I live in a veritable paradise. I have everything I need and most everything I want. If I want it I can get it.
    Oh. Ok. Well, then. Tell it to the billions who suffer unimaginable pain and anguish and starvation every day. Right?
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    05 May '10 00:13
    Originally posted by avalanchethecat
    Sounds suspiciously like pride dude...
    To me it sounds more like massive insecurity and emptiness shored up with regurgitations about how he is alive and how I am dead. I think it's fine for him to fill his emptiness in the way he does. But for him to assume that everyone shares this same emptiness seems like too much speculation has been internalized and turned into 'certainty'. For someone as wobbly as this to suggest that someone like me is "as good as dead" is baffling.
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