If God is not Real to you ....

Originally posted by jaywill
This thread is an attempt to deal with obstacles to the realness of God in the lives of some people.

If God is not real to you, I recommend that you consider that your sins are a problem. The Bible says that the sins of people make a separation between them and God.

[b]"No, Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy th e is no problem to substantiating the reality of God.

Let me stop here for now.

…If God is not real to you, I recommend that you consider that your sins are a problem.
..…[/b]

So what are my “sins”?
Can you give a specific example of just one of my "sins"?

The problem here is that I don’t think I have “sinned”!
-I have never broken the law nor ever significantly misbehaved as an adult and only very rarely significantly misbehaved when I was a very young child -somehow I don’t think even that misbehaviour counts as much.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===================================
If we are all sinners, then you are just as separated from god as I.
======================================

I am not just as separated as you. I am much more so, when I do not confess and avail myself of the power of the blood of Jesus. I am worst than all of you.

The good news is this, the blood of . I receive this forgiveness."[/b]

You will not be put to shame.[/b]

"I am a worst sinner probably than you. I found that Christ's blood erases the guilt of sins and peace floods into one's conscience."

People have a remarkable propensity to rationalize away acts of selfishness and acts of inhumanity to man. Those with a conscience feel guilty because they know their actions are not true. There are basically two ways of getting relief from this burden. One is to realize the utter falseness of such behavior with a corresponding change of heart and action. The other is to find ways to relieve themselves from the burden of guilt without having to change. Evidently your belief system falls into the latter. No doubt you'll tell yourself that "it's a "lifelong process", "it takes time for God to make the changes", etc., but this is only a part of the rationalization. So far as I know Jesus did not teach this concept while He walked the earth. You really should ask yourself why. Perhaps it is a "lifelong process" because your belief system short circuits the guilt that would otherwise effect change. Perhaps what you perceive as "God" is merely the sense of "peace" you find in relieving yourself of the burden of guilt.

Originally posted by jaywill
This thread is an attempt to deal with obstacles to the realness of God in the lives of some people.

If God is not real to you, I recommend that you consider that your sins are a problem. The Bible says that the sins of people make a separation between them and God.

[b]"No, Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy th ...[text shortened]... e is no problem to substantiating the reality of God.

Let me stop here for now.

If God is not real to me, then sin is a nonsensical concept. Your argument is circular.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
If God is not real to me, then sin is a nonsensical concept. Your argument is circular.

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If God is not real to me, then sin is a nonsensical concept. Your argument is circular.
=================================

But sin is real to you even if God is not real to you.

If you did not think so ask yourself, are there people who have offended you?

If sin is a weak concept or circular why do you have trouble forgeting some of the things which have been done against you?

Would you say "Well those offenses were not sins." Some of them were close enough to sins.

When others are asked about what you did to them, though they do not like the concept of God or sin, some of them will have to admit that if sin exists, sin is what you did against them. God has a record of it.

And God not being real to you is not saying God is not real.

And what will you do when you go to eternal damnation unforgiven and reconciled to God? Will you shout out about the ciruclar reasoning of your sins forever?

God said "Come now and let us reason together, Says Jehovah,

Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow;"

If on the day of judgment a recording of your life is played back to you, you will see that indeed some of your sins are as scarlet - glaringly wicked causing a deep stain on your life. Don't count on circular reasoning to lessen their guilt. Rather trust in the redemption of Christ to remove their guilt.

" Though they are as red as crimson, They will be like wool." [/b]

Don't trust that some kind of circular reasoning will cause your sins to not be too serious on that day.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"I am a worst sinner probably than you. I found that Christ's blood erases the guilt of sins and peace floods into one's conscience."

People have a remarkable propensity to rationalize away acts of selfishness and acts of inhumanity to man. Those with a conscience feel guilty because they know their actions are not true. There are basically two ely the sense of "peace" you find in relieving yourself of the burden of guilt.[/b]

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relieve themselves from the burden of guilt without having to change
============================

Changing the sinner is another aspect of Christ's salvation.

I have said on this Forum before, in God's salvation you get to be forgiven of all sins. You DO NOT get to remain the same kind of person you were when you sinned.

So your complaint does not apply. And one entire thread could be dedicated to the subject of transformation and sanctification.

Your evaluation of the Christian "system" is erroneous.

I have also said on this Forum before: Here's the situation with the saved person. He and God are incompatible. And God does not change.

So you know what that means. The sinner must undergo a change. He can put it off for a little while. He cannot avoid it. He will, in this age or in an age to come, be conformed to the image of the Son of God.

So your complaint is based on a wrong understanding of the New Testament.

"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be CONFORMED to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers.

And those whom He predistinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these HE also glorified." (Rom. 8:29,30)

You cannot outsmart God. You should give up trying.

Every forgiven sinner must be conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son of God, in disposition, in character, in daily living, in expression, even in the innermost motive - all are in the process of dispensational sanctification.

The normal Christian life (I said normal and not average) is to cooperate for transformation once having been justified.

I want to be normal in this regard as do millions of others.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"I am a worst sinner probably than you. I found that Christ's blood erases the guilt of sins and peace floods into one's conscience."

People have a remarkable propensity to rationalize away acts of selfishness and acts of inhumanity to man. Those with a conscience feel guilty because they know their actions are not true. There are basically two ...[text shortened]... ely the sense of "peace" you find in relieving yourself of the burden of guilt.[/b]

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So far as I know Jesus did not teach this concept while He walked the earth. You really should ask yourself why. Perhaps it is a "lifelong process" because your belief system short circuits the guilt that would otherwise effect change. Perhaps what you perceive as "God" is merely the sense of "peace" you find in relieving yourself of the burden of guilt.
=================================

You should be enlarged in capacity. You have a myopic view of Christ's teaching which has difficulty embracing various aspects of it.

Your dichotomies are false. "Your Either He taught this OR He taught that" is symptomatic of your myopic keywhole comprehension of the New Testament.

In this thread I am focusing on the problem of God not being substantiated and enjoyed by people. I am focusing on the obstacle of sins which need to be dealt with.

This is not a declaration that ONLY this aspect of the New Testament and no other is taught.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=========================
relieve themselves from the burden of guilt without having to change
============================

Changing the sinner is another aspect of Christ's salvation.

I have said on this Forum before, in God's salvation you get to be forgiven of all sins. You DO NOT get to remain the same kind of person you were when ...[text shortened]... having been justified.

I want to be normal in this regard as do millions of others.[/b]

"The sinner must undergo a change. He can put it off for a little while. He cannot avoid it. He will, in this age or in an age to come, be conformed to the image of the Son of God."

If by "in an age to come", you mean that the sinner does not necessarily need to change in the time that he walks the earth, then my statement stands. It's a way to "relieve themselves from the burden of guilt without having to change." Since you said that you "found that Christ's blood erases the guilt of sins and peace floods into one's conscience", I assume that you mean that the burden of guilt is relieved while he walks the earth, yet he continues to sin. If so, then it's clearly as I stated.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=============================
So far as I know Jesus did not teach this concept while He walked the earth. You really should ask yourself why. Perhaps it is a "lifelong process" because your belief system short circuits the guilt that would otherwise effect change. Perhaps what you perceive as "God" is merely the sense of "peace" you find in relievi is not a declaration that ONLY this aspect of the New Testament and no other is taught.

[/b]So far as I can tell, this is yet another instance where you make declarations without backing them up with the words that Jesus spoke while He walked the earth. If you can back them up, I wish you'd just do so.

Originally posted by jaywill
This thread is an attempt to deal with obstacles to the realness of God in the lives of some people.

If God is not real to you, I recommend that you consider that your sins are a problem. The Bible says that the sins of people make a separation between them and God.

[b]"No, Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy th ...[text shortened]... e is no problem to substantiating the reality of God.

Let me stop here for now.

What bothers me, right...
Is if this God is totally omnipotent and omnipresent, then surely it has better things to do than worry about me screwing the vicar's wife?

I mean, come off it... isn't there some imploding nebula somewhere that would better need its attention?

Originally posted by jaywill
If God is not real to you, I recommend that you consider that your sins are a problem.

Why would I want God to be real to me? You seem to be starting with the assumption that God is real enough to me for me to want to make him more real.
What is 'sin'? There are quite varied understandings of the word.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"I am a worst sinner probably than you. I found that Christ's blood erases the guilt of sins and peace floods into one's conscience."

People have a remarkable propensity to rationalize away acts of selfishness and acts of inhumanity to man. Those with a conscience feel guilty because they know their actions are not true. There are basically two ely the sense of "peace" you find in relieving yourself of the burden of guilt.[/b]

Perhaps what you perceive as "God" is merely the sense of "peace" you find in relieving yourself of the burden of guilt.
--------ToO------------------------------

What exactly do YOU perceive as God? Do you have any personal experience of being cleansed from sin or any sense of why Christ said he had to die ? ("this is my body , given for the remission of sin" )

If not then you are only speculating on the imagined experiences of others. You have no grounding in your own personal experiences. For a start , it seems you don't even believe in the Father God that Jesus preached of.

The burden of guilt in Christian theology is the knowledge that our nature and behaviour and state of heart has created a rift in our relationship with God. The "peace" comes from that relationship being restored or healed. If two close friends fall out due to hurting one another , the burden of guilt is that it separates them . Forgiveness heals that relationship , so although they may still regret what happened the guilt is not allowed to interfere with their relationship . They are at peace with one another.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"The sinner must undergo a change. He can put it off for a little while. He cannot avoid it. He will, in this age or in an age to come, be conformed to the image of the Son of God."

If by "in an age to come", you mean that the sinner does not necessarily need to change in the time that he walks the earth, then my statement stands. It's a ...[text shortened]... e he walks the earth, yet he continues to sin. If so, then it's clearly as I stated.[/b]

It's a way to "relieve themselves from the burden of guilt without having to change." Since you said that you "found that Christ's blood erases the guilt of sins and peace floods into one's conscience"
----ToO-------------------------

The point is that unless a person finds peace and forgiveness they will find it hard to change radically. The more at peace one is the more likely one is to function better as a human being , and therefore more able to make changes to his life. Regret and guilt keep us trapped in the behaviour we say we want to change , because guilt robs us of power and makes us feel unworthy and low , unforgiven and less of a person. So whilst guilt has it's place in alerting us to behaviours we need to change , it is not going to take us their .

Forgiveness heals. Acceptance heals. Peace leads to change. Being forgiven is liberating , excessive guilt just keeps us trapped. Guilt is a good wake up call , but to get out of bed and walk requires more.

Originally posted by jaywill
This thread is an attempt to deal with obstacles to the realness of God in the lives of some people.

If God is not real to you, I recommend that you consider that your sins are a problem. The Bible says that the sins of people make a separation between them and God.

[b]"No, Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy th ...[text shortened]... e is no problem to substantiating the reality of God.

Let me stop here for now.

"If God is not real to you, I recommend that you consider that your sins are a problem."

God is real to me and when I consider that my sins are a problem I come to the conclusion that my sins are not a problem.
Even more I think that I have no sins at all. Even more I think God doesn't think in terms of sin.
I think sin is a man-made term. To me God is a loving entity! And a loving god loves everything equal; loving means you can't consider someone/anyone sinful. That's just contradictory with loving.

Otto

Originally posted by Quirine
"If God is not real to you, I recommend that you consider that your sins are a problem."

God is real to me and when I consider that my sins are a problem I come to the conclusion that my sins are not a problem.
Even more I think that I have no sins at all. Even more I think God doesn't think in terms of sin.
I think sin is a man-made term. To me God is ...[text shortened]... ns you can't consider someone/anyone sinful. That's just contradictory with loving.

Otto

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Even more I think that I have no sins at all. Even more I think God doesn't think in terms of sin.
I think sin is a man-made term. To me God is a loving entity! And a loving god loves everything equal; loving means you can't consider someone/anyone sinful. That's just contradictory with loving.
========================================

No. Love without justice and righteousness is not love. It is not a very high quality of love.

I think you have to go back to the Bible and consider the whole picture. Unimited permissiveness is not a healthy expression of love.

I loved my children. When I observed one of them sneak something out of the store which I did not purchase, I had to deal with that error. I made him take it back. I instructed him about stealing. It hurts others. It hurts himself. It damages his character.

That was love.

Now in the Bible we are dealing with God. His love is very very powerful. I mean when He loves, He REALLY loves. His love is really strong and can endure for you even for eternity. That is real strong love.

But love is not His only attribute. He is perfect in righteousness. He is holy. He is glorious. He is not only good. He is gloriously good.

The problem then for God is how can He express on one hand His great love and on the other hand His perfect righteousness? Does one attribute cancel out the other?

Can God say "Because I love you I will not call into account your sins."

If He judges us without any mercy because of our sins, He is not loving. He is too harsh. Yet if He permits us to do whatever sins we wish and turns His eyes away, He is not righteous.

I ask you to start here - recognizing that Righteousness is also an attribute of this great God of Love.

The cross of Jesus is where God's Love is at work and God's righteousness is at work as well.

And you must realize this - God will not give up His righteousness. He will not forgive us in an unrighteous way. He will forgive us. But it must be a righteous forgiveness. He will not permit any being in all eternity to be able to charge Him with playing favorites.

No, He will forgive because the righteous price was paid and because the righteous penalty was exacted. Justice must be imputed.

Justice was imputed on His undeserving righteous Son on the cross on our behalf. Justice fell on Jesus which was due to all sinners. Now He commands that we believe. His is the "system" of justification. Our responsibility to make it effectual for us personally, is to believe into Christ.

But know this - unlimited and unbridled permissiveness is not love. It is not the Divine Love of God to permit sin to run ramped. Sin is an abomination to this God of Love.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]============================
If God is not real to me, then sin is a nonsensical concept. Your argument is circular.
=================================

But sin is real to you even if God is not real to you.

If you did not think so ask yourself, are there people who have offended you?

If sin is a weak concept or circular why do you some kind of circular reasoning will cause your sins to not be too serious on that day.[/b]

…
If you did not think so ask yourself, are there people who have offended you?

If sin is a weak concept or circular why do you have trouble forgetting some of the things which have been done against you?

Would you say "Well those offences were not sins."
..…

In answer to your last question above, I would say merely being offensive is not how I and probably most people would equate with the word “sin”.
In everyday English, I don’t think most people wouldn’t call merely making some offensive words a “sin”. In fact, the word “sin” can formally mean doing the exact opposite of what “God” tells you to do:

http://www.allaboutgod.com/definition-of-sin.htm

“…If God says "Do not lie" and you lie, then you have sinned. If God says "Do not steal" and you steal, then you have sinned. According to God, sin separates you from Him (Isaiah 59:2)…”

But that means if you are an atheist like me and you don’t believe there exists a “God” then you, like me, wouldn’t believe there is such thing as “sin” in the stated sense above (because there is no “God” to tell you what to do and thus allow you to do the opposite of what “he” says because “he“ wouldn’t exist) and therefore your assertion: -

….But sin is real to you even if God is not real to you. ..…

-with THIS definition of "sin", must logically be false.

However, of course, you could be giving the word “sin” a much wider meaning:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Sin

“…1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.
2. Theology
a. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
b. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.
3. Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong….”

-then, at least with definition (3), you cannot imply anything about the existence/non-existence of a “God” by the word “sin” (I am not implying here that this is what you implied) for saying somebody “sinned” wouldn’t, at least with definition (3) above, necessarily imply that there is a “god”.