If God is not Real to you ....

Originally posted by shavixmir
What bothers me, right...
Is if this God is totally omnipotent and omnipresent, then surely it has better things to do than worry about me screwing the vicar's wife?

I mean, come off it... isn't there some imploding nebula somewhere that would better need its attention?

Hmmm...if he really is omnipotent and omnipresent then it should be a simple matter to tend to both the nebulae and the vicar's wife simultaneously. Quite unlike they Eye of Sauron atop Barad-Dur, his attention would be directed simultaneously toward everything.

the posts in this thread are ridiculously long, how can any sane person be expected to read any of them without blowing their brains out. If you can't make your point briefly...then don't...just....don't😞

Originally posted by jaywill
No. Love without justice and righteousness is not love. It is not a very high quality of love.

I think you have to go back to the Bible and consider the whole picture. Unimited permissiveness is not a healthy expression of love.

I loved my children. When I observed one of them sneak something out of the store which I did not purchase, I had to deal ...[text shortened]... Divine Love of God to permit sin to run ramped. Sin is an abomination to this God of Love.[/b]

-- No. Love without justice and righteousness is not love. It is not a very high quality of love.--
I think it is you who misunderstands. Any conditional 'love' is not love. It's something else. What it is then depends on the condition.

-- Now in the Bible we are dealing with God. His love is very very powerful. I mean when He loves, He REALLY loves. His love is really strong and can endure for you even for eternity. That is real strong love.--
No argument though I personally do not take the Bible as my reference.

-- He is perfect in righteousness.--
Hmm, I'm having troubles with this the way you mean it. I can only accept his righteousness if it means (and I think God means it my way):
God created everything perfect (and with own free will). Since he knows this is the case there's no need to judge or correct in any way. Whatever one does with free will is okay in God's point of view.
In our (human) view there are of course moral issues with this but that is what I said: human view.

Originally posted by Quirine
-- No. Love without justice and righteousness is not love. It is not a very high quality of love.--
I think it is you who misunderstands. Any conditional 'love' is not love. It's something else. What it is then depends on the condition.

-- Now in the Bible we are dealing with God. His love is very very powerful. I mean when He loves, He REALLY loves. uman) view there are of course moral issues with this but that is what I said: human view.

This is an interesting point of view. You said you do not take the Bible as your reference. So what informs your point of view? I'm particularly interested in what informs the following statements:

"Any conditional 'love' is not love."

"Whatever one does with free will is okay in God's point of view."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
This is an interesting point of view. You said you do not take the Bible as your reference. So what informs your point of view? I'm particularly interested in what informs the following statements:

"Any conditional 'love' is not love."

"Whatever one does with free will is okay in God's point of view."

--So what informs your point of view?--
You mean what my source is?
My source is me + a lot of esoteric books and talks with my wife and friends.

"Any conditional 'love' is not love."
Any condition (you place on someone) means either you do not accept (part of) someone now or you do not accept (part of) someone in the future.
More to the point it even means that by placing any condition you do not accept/respect the freedom of the other. Not accepting or respecting means you are not in a state of love.

Originally posted by jaywill
This thread is an attempt to deal with obstacles to the realness of God in the lives of some people.

If God is not real to you, I recommend that you consider that your sins are a problem. The Bible says that the sins of people make a separation between them and God.

[b]"No, Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy th ...[text shortened]... e is no problem to substantiating the reality of God.

Let me stop here for now.

My inquiries have become a separation between me and my God.

The more questions I ask, the fewer answers seem to be forthcoming. Hence, the divide grows deeper and wider with every passing day.

Originally posted by Quirine
--So what informs your point of view?--
You mean what my source is?
My source is me + a lot of esoteric books and talks with my wife and friends.

"Any conditional 'love' is not love."
Any condition (you place on someone) means either you do not accept (part of) someone now or you do not accept (part of) someone in the future.
More to the point it even ...[text shortened]... the freedom of the other. Not accepting or respecting means you are not in a state of love.

This position seems problematic.

For example, are you saying that a wife whose husband beats and tortures her does not love him if she is not accepting and respecting of such "freedom"? Would you say that he loves her even though he does this?

You didn't comment on the following. Was this intentional?
"Whatever one does with free will is okay in God's point of view."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
This position seems problematic.

For example, are you saying that a wife whose husband beats and tortures her does not love him if she is not accepting and respecting of such "freedom"? Would you say that he loves her even though he does this?

You didn't comment on the following. Was this intentional?
"Whatever one does with free will is okay in God's point of view."

--For example, are you saying that a wife whose husband beats and tortures her does not love him if she is not accepting and respecting of such "freedom"?--
Correct then she doesn't love him (wholly). Completely understandable of course but that's beside the point.

--Would you say that he loves her even though he does this?--
I suspect not because if he accepted/respected her he probably wouldn't have to beat her.

--You didn't comment on the following. Was this intentional?
"Whatever one does with free will is okay in God's point of view."--
Well it has a lot to do with the other point I made about God creating all perfect. I think he created all to his own image, meaning that we (humans) have the same ability that God has. There is no limit to this ability except maybe for this: God created us but we can't create God. So we can do everything we want, create everything we want and in fact we do that all the time (that we don't know (anymore) how this works is another subject). To God (at least the God how I perceive him) everything is okay what we do. We humans somehow forgot what it was to be like God. We no longer feel that we are one but instead feel seperated and we started to think that we are better or more important than others, that we differ from others (Don't know if this makes sense but I have to do it in English). God helps everyone who asks to remember him/herself. In all this there's no judging on whatever actions one might do.

Originally posted by Quirine
--For example, are you saying that a wife whose husband beats and tortures her does not love him if she is not accepting and respecting of such "freedom"?--
Correct then she doesn't love him (wholly). Completely understandable of course but that's beside the point.

--Would you say that he loves her even though he does this?--
I suspect not because if he ember him/herself. In all this there's no judging on whatever actions one might do.

"I suspect not because if he accepted/respected her he probably wouldn't have to beat her."

Is it correct to conclude that you see "acceptance/respect" as a condition of love?

"We humans somehow forgot what it was to be like God. We no longer feel that we are one but instead feel seperated and we started to think that we are better or more important than others, that we differ from others "

Doesn't this "separation" make humans less than "perfect" and therefore at least some of the actions arising from this state also imperfect?

Originally posted by Quirine
-- No. Love without justice and righteousness is not love. It is not a very high quality of love.--
I think it is you who misunderstands. Any conditional 'love' is not love. It's something else. What it is then depends on the condition.

-- Now in the Bible we are dealing with God. His love is very very powerful. I mean when He loves, He REALLY loves. uman) view there are of course moral issues with this but that is what I said: human view.

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I think it is you who misunderstands. Any conditional 'love' is not love. It's something else. What it is then depends on the condition.
==================================

I don't think I said that God stops loving at any point. I thought about this and cannot easily find a passage in the New Testament saying that God stopped loving the sinner. (One possible exception in the book of Romans about Esau).

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-- He is perfect in righteousness.--
Hmm, I'm having troubles with this the way you mean it. I can only accept his righteousness if it means (and I think God means it my way):
God created everything perfect (and with own free will).
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Well, I do refer to what is in the Bible which I take as God's revelation to man.

There in Genesis it says He looked upon all that He created and saw that it was "very good".

I would have to think about your concept that He created everything "perfect". Creating all things "very good" may not be creating them "perfect".

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Since he knows this is the case there's no need to judge or correct in any way. Whatever one does with free will is okay in God's point of view.
=============================

I am not sure He knows that it is the case that He created everything in your idea of "perfect". So logic based on this, I am not too sure about.

To get the point accross that "everything" done via free will was not acceptable, we are told that "Because you listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree concerning which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it; Cursed is the ground because of you ..." (See Gen. 3:17)

I think Genesis 3 is the earliest indication that whatever choice man made with his free will was not acceptable to God.

And again in Genesis 6 "And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continueally. And Jehovah repented that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him to His heart." (v.5,6)

This too shows me early in the Bible that whatever issued from the free will of man was not acceptable to God. This was especially true after the fall of man.

I would say that aside from taking into himself the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it seems that all else coming from the free will would have been good. And that seems a very vast arena of things.

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In our (human) view there are of course moral issues with this but that is what I said: human view.
==================================

My focus here was a very typical reason why God is not real to some people. He may love them very much but He is not real to them.

That is what I was addressing. Sin makes a separation from this loving God. And in His love God has made provision for that problem. He has not left us to our own resources to deal with the separation of sin.

Originally posted by jaywill... I do refer to what is in the Bible which I take as God's revelation to man. ...[/b]

well, there is no rational reason, or evidence from which to accept this conclusion as anything other than your own dogmatic opinion.

That being said, your insistence on using words related to this book as though the Bible established actual facts is both an unwarranted assumption on your part and evidence, admissible in court, that you are irrational.

Of course, if you admit that your belief is merely your own opinion and do not represent this opinion of yours to be that which is the case in reality, fine.

but that's not the way you write or use the language -- leading one to question whether you are playing with a full deck, or missing a few treads on that stairway to heaven of yours.

Originally posted by Quirine
-- No. Love without justice and righteousness is not love. It is not a very high quality of love.--
I think it is you who misunderstands. Any conditional 'love' is not love. It's something else. What it is then depends on the condition.

-- Now in the Bible we are dealing with God. His love is very very powerful. I mean when He loves, He REALLY loves. uman) view there are of course moral issues with this but that is what I said: human view.

Pardon the interruption. A little light for your path, if you're not opposed.

There are two types of love when dealing with others. One is impersonal, the other is personal. Love itself (as it is recognized by man) is a transitive verb, requiring both a subject and an object. The most common iteration of the concept is, of course, "I love you."

Impersonal love is that which is based on the subject, the "I" in the statement. Their integrity, character and standard are the issue. Regardless of the object, the subject is basing their love on their own integrity, rather than the value of the "you." We often see this in the love of a parent toward their children, or in the heroism of a soldier toward his fellow (yet unknown) countrymen.

Personal love is that which is based upon the object, the "you" in that statement. If "you" do everything I want, need, or find attractive, I will continue loving you. If not, well...

God's love toward man is both impersonal (based upon His character and integrity) and personal (based upon what He finds acceptable in man and angels), depending upon the situation. Toward all unbelievers, God's love is impersonal. We find this in such passages as, " ...when we were yet sinners, Christ died for us," or, "For God so loved the world... "

Toward select believers, God's love is personal in that we share His righteousness (among other things).

I strongly recommend C.S. Lewis' "The Five Loves". Even though I don't agree with everything he says, he does give good insight into the wide range that the word 'love' has and points out that it is often used to refer to selfish needs.

Originally posted by Scriabin
well, there is no rational reason, or evidence from which to accept this conclusion as anything other than your own dogmatic opinion.

That being said, your insistence on using words related to this book as though the Bible established actual facts is both an unwarranted assumption on your part and evidence, admissible in court, that you are irrational.
...[text shortened]... you are playing with a full deck, or missing a few treads on that stairway to heaven of yours.

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well, there is no rational reason, or evidence from which to accept this conclusion as anything other than your own dogmatic opinion.
============================

No there is more rational than that. There is the fact that you have in history this extraordinary Person Jesus of Nazarath.

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That being said, your insistence on using words related to this book as though the Bible established actual facts is both an unwarranted assumption on your part and evidence, admissible in court, that you are irrational.
====================================

As I said, you cannot ignore history. This extraordinary man, Jesus of Nazarath lived. And by all accounts is held in high esteem nearly universality as having very high level of honesty and morality.

His words on the matter command the attention of thoughtful people for over 2,000 years. So we are not simply whistling in the dark.

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Of course, if you admit that your belief is merely your own opinion and do not represent this opinion of yours to be that which is the case in reality, fine.
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I admit that what I believe is the truth which will remain long after you'e gone off to your reward, whatever that may be.

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away."

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but that's not the way you write or use the language -- leading one to question whether you are playing with a full deck, or missing a few treads on that stairway to heaven of yours.
===================================

You're always free to question as much as you want.

They questioned the sanity of Jesus. I expect that His followers would be likewise questioned.

I only feel to repeat here.

God is not real often because of the separation between the man and God's presence by sins.

God has made provision for this separation in the blood of Christ's redemption. When we believe and claim that His blood does indeed cleans us from all of our sins, as He taught, and we accept it personally, the Holy Spirit bears witness to this.

We can then enter into communion and fellowship with God. Paul's final words to Timothy in the NT - "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you"

The Lord us with the innermost being of the believer so as to be in communion and fellowship with the believer.

This fellowship allows grace to be with the believer. Grace is the enjoyment of God as His enabling us to live rightly. This grace flows into us and empowers us to actually live in union with the resurrected Jesus.

Don't listen to Scriabin. He has no clue why he is here in the universe and only likes to come to the Spirituality Forum to brag about what he doesn't believe.

It is much better to entrust yourself to Jesus Christ. It should be normal that God is present, real, enjoyable, sweet, and available. This relationship grows. It is not the whole package at once.

God does not coerce or usurp the human will. And the symbol of the Holy Spirit is a gentle and meek DOVE. A dove is easily frightened away. God is like a dove in spite of the fact that He is almighty. He will withdraw when you resist. He is gentle and will not usurp your free will.

Learning the gentleness of the Holy Spirit is a key to sinking into a deeper and deeper relationship with God.

Centries ago a classic book was written about this by a certain Brother Lawrence entitled "The Practice of the Presence of God"

Look it up.