1. Joined
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    02 May '09 15:202 edits
    This thread is an attempt to deal with obstacles to the realness of God in the lives of some people.

    If God is not real to you, I recommend that you consider that your sins are a problem. The Bible says that the sins of people make a separation between them and God.

    "No, Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy that it cannot hear.

    But your iniquities have become a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear." (Isaiah 59:2)


    I only ask you to consider seriously. The Bible says that your iniquities have become a separation. Your sins have caused a barrier to fellowship with God so that God is not real to you.

    Look at the problem of what you did which was sinful, what you said which was sinful. Your iniquities that were actually wrong and evil in reality have caused an insulation making God not real in your personal experience.

    Common errors:

    1.) It says here "your sins". Most of us are not willing to draw a circle around ourselves to consider "my" sins. Most of us compare ourselves with someone else and say, "Well at least I'm not so bad as this guy over hear."

    It is irrelevant to the truth -"YOUR iniquities ... have made a separation."

    I remember the moment, the night when I first realized that the issue was not this other person or that other person. The issue was my sins and my iniquities had made a separation between me and God so that there was no fellowship with God and no communion with God.

    We are aware of wrongs done to us to the point that we consider our own sins and iniquities last. But to deal with the separation between us and God we must deal with our sins.

    When they are really confessed and forgiven by God, the separation is removed. Then there is no problem to substantiating the reality of God.

    Let me stop here for now.
  2. Joined
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    02 May '09 15:41
    In the problem of God not being real to someone, the Bible says -


    " ... your iniquities have made a SEPARATION between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear." (See Isa. 59:2)

    A person may feel that God is not responsive to her. In this case there may be a one way communication. His word is coming to the sinner. But the sinner's word is not penetrating to God.

    His word is coming to you warning about your sins. The reason is not to make you feel bad for its own sake. It is that the barrier to fellowship may be removed by you acknowledging to God your need to be forgiven.

    "your iniquities have made a separation ..."

    This may be compared to a window which cannot let the bright sunlight in because it is soiled black with greasy soot. There is no problem with the sunshine outside. The problem is that there is an obstacle to its shinning which needs to be removed.

    The sins need to cleansed away in the redemptive act of Christ. That needs to be believed, received, and accepted. It is agreeing with God's evaluation of your sins. Excusing yourself or pointing to others prolongs the separation.

    "YOUR .... iniquities have made a separation between you and your God."

    Actual guilt is a fact. And actual forgiveness is too.

    So earlier God says:

    "Come now and let us reason together, says Jehovah, Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; And though they are as red as crimson, they will be like wool." (Isa. 1:18)

    God has made provision for the problem. He calls for us to be reasonable about it. He can remove the obstacle of our guilt. He can remove the barrier of our sins. The insulation causing God to not be touchable in us has a remedy which God has provided.

    He can deal with the separation if we are willing to acknowledge the problem/s.
  3. Joined
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    02 May '09 15:53
    "Come now and let us REASON together, says Jehovah.

    Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow;

    Though they are as red as crimson, they will be like wool." (Isa. 1:18)


    Our sins and our iniquites have made a separation between us and God so that God is not real to us before we are saved judicially by Christ.

    Now sometimes a person will not come to God confessing their sins because they reason that they love to sin so much and cannot possibly change.

    God knows that you cannot change. God knows that you are addicted. God knows that you are weak. God knows that sins are enjoyable to you often.

    God knows the you enjoy sinning. Changing you is the business of Christ.

    So some will not come to God because they reason "I know that I am a sinner. But I am not the religious type. I cannot will myself to do better. I don't want to change. I mean I don't think I can live for God anyway. What is the use. I don't have the strength to be right."

    The obstacle between a person and God is the guilt of sin, the stain of sin, the defiling mark of sin as a record before God. The power to over come sin comes with the presence of the Holy Spirit ONCE ... the barrier has been removed.

    So I encourage some of you. Along with confessing your sins you should by all means confess that in yourself you are helpless to change yourself.

    It is good not only to confess that you are a sinner but to confess that you are hopelessly so. You cannot change. You should confess that you cannot possibly do better.

    Once the guilt is forgiven, once Jesus is dispensed into your spirit, the power of the grace of Christ will be like, let me say ... power steering on an automobile.

    I am serious. Power steering allows you to extend a little effort but reinforces it with a great energy. The grace of Jesus in your being is much like power steering. Once you experience this power steering your have a feeling that you are really on the right track to believe in God.

    And His presence becomes sweet. The sense of spiritual cleaness and brightness within is the most splendid human sensation. Now you are living.

    I have to continue latter.
  4. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
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    02 May '09 15:561 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    This thread is an attempt to deal with obstacles to the realness of God in the lives of some people.

    If God is not real to you, I recommend that you consider that your sins are a problem. The Bible says that the sins of people make a separation between them and God.
    "No, Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy th e is no problem to substantiating the reality of God.

    Let me stop here for now.
    If we are all sinners, then you are just as separated from god as I. But for some reason, you claim to experience 'god' whereas I do not. The difference (it seems) is that by confessing your sins (to god) your separation has allegedly been removed. This seems no different to me than saying, "I believe because I believe."
  5. Joined
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    02 May '09 16:372 edits
    Originally posted by rwingett
    If we are all sinners, then you are just as separated from god as I. But for some reason, you claim to experience 'god' whereas I do not. The difference (it seems) is that by confessing your sins (to god) your separation has allegedly been removed. This seems no different to me than saying, "I believe because I believe."
    ===================================
    If we are all sinners, then you are just as separated from god as I.
    ======================================


    I am not just as separated as you. I am much more so, when I do not confess and avail myself of the power of the blood of Jesus. I am worst than all of you.

    The good news is this, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sins so as to remove, obliterate the separation. We can have communion with God. In fact He becomes more to us than simply our Creator. We may intimately know Him and Him Daddy - or "Abba Father, my own dear Father"

    When a person has used the key to draw close to God, what's wrong with him wanting to share it.

    I am a worst sinner probably than you. I found that Christ's blood erases the guilt of sins and peace floods into one's conscience. God the Father becomes one Whom you can taste.

    "Taste and see that the Lord is good."


    ====================================
    But for some reason, you claim to experience 'god' whereas I do not. The difference (it seems) is that by confessing your sins (to god) your separation has allegedly been removed. This seems no different to me than saying, "I believe because I believe."
    ==================================


    An agnostic friend once complained to me saying "This is the problem I have with the Christian Gospel, you have to have faith to believe and you have to believe to have faith."

    I went home stumped and thought how to answer such a person. I found out that he was right. You have to have faith to believe and you have to believe to have faith.

    Even the Bible says the same - "But without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to Him, for he who comes forward to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who deligently seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6)

    So the Bible somewhat agrees with you. Congradulations. A person must believe that God is to come forward to God.

    Now this thread was more practical than philosophical. So maybe this will be of no use to you.

    I entitled is "IF God is not real to you ...".

    Okay, so some thoughful person objects - "But you're saying you believe because you believe." Maybe. But that in itself doesn't mean that God is not real. There is I think a class of things of which you have to believe in to have faith in which are reality. God is in that class.

    But again, the focus of my contribution is that one should seriously look at the barrier of the sins she or he has committed.

    "Your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God ..."

    That is a far more practical starting point, I think. It is more practical than musing for the rest of your life "Let me see. How do I get out of this philisophical delimma? I have to have faith in order to believe and I have to believe in order to have faith."

    That may be an unsolvable philosophical puzzle. But here is a good practical starting point to touching God:

    "I confess to you God, that I am a sinner. I enjoy my sinning. I cannot change myself. But I accept Christ's dying for me for the forgiveness of my sins. I reason along with you God. THough my sins are indeed like a red crimson stain on my character, you will make it as white as snow because of Jesus. Thank you God. I receive this forgiveness."

    You will not be put to shame.
  6. Joined
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    02 May '09 16:491 edit
    To the person who complains - "Well, you have to have faith to believe in God and you have to believe in order to have faith in God."

    I would say "But you do have a little faith". It doesn't take much. God is faithful. You can take you little faith, which is only the size of a mustard seed, and God will cause it to grow.

    You can take your miniscule tiny amount of faith and pray "God you are not very real to me. In fact you are not real to me hardly at all. But according to what the Bible says I confess that I am a sinner, separated from knowing you because of what I did and continue to do.

    I come with my microscopic amount of belief and ask you to help my unbelief. Come into me Savior Jesus. Come into my heart Lord Jesus.


    You will not be the first or last person with a tiny tiny tiny amount of faith who drew near to God in the blood of Jesus and became close to Him , so enjoyably and so convincingly.

    People, don't spend the rest of your life musing "Let me see. This is rather circular. I have to believe in God in order to have faith in God. Hmmm. Not too logical. Not too reliable."

    Rather agree with the word of God willingly. "Lord Jesus, I am willing to confess that I am a sinner in need of salvation. Thankyou they told me you desire all men to be saved. I come to you with my little bit of belief and a lot of doubt. Receive me Lord Jesus."

    You will not be put to shame. God is faithful.
  7. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
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    02 May '09 17:17
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]===================================
    If we are all sinners, then you are just as separated from god as I.
    ======================================


    I am not just as separated as you. I am much more so, when I do not confess and avail myself of the power of the blood of Jesus. I am worst than all of you.

    The good news is this, the blood of ...[text shortened]... . I receive this forgiveness."[/b]

    You will not be put to shame.[/b]
    If it is true, as you say, that you have to believe to have faith, and to have faith to believe, then it seems to me that this is a closed system. If both attributes are necessary, then a person who lacks one or the other can never enter that self-reinforcing circle. I could say the opposite, that I don't have faith because I don't believe, and don't believe because I don't have faith, and there would be no way for me to break out of that circle. By that rationale, believers will continue to believe and non-believers will continue to not believe, and there can never be any crossover between them.
  8. Joined
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    02 May '09 18:16
    Originally posted by rwingett
    If it is true, as you say, that you have to believe to have faith, and to have faith to believe, then it seems to me that this is a closed system. If both attributes are necessary, then a person who lacks one or the other can never enter that self-reinforcing circle. I could say the opposite, that I don't have faith because I don't believe, and don't believ ...[text shortened]... n-believers will continue to not believe, and there can never be any crossover between them.
    =====================================
    If it is true, as you say, that you have to believe to have faith, and to have faith to believe, then it seems to me that this is a closed system.
    ======================================


    Then this is not for you.

    This is for people who see not a "closed system" but a willing and faithful God Who is true to His word.

    Goodbye.
    Thankyou for your observations.
  9. Pepperland
    Joined
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    02 May '09 18:18
    Originally posted by jaywill
    This thread is an attempt to deal with obstacles to the realness of God in the lives of some people.

    If God is not real to you, I recommend that you consider that your sins are a problem. The Bible says that the sins of people make a separation between them and God.

    [b]"No, Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy th ...[text shortened]... e is no problem to substantiating the reality of God.

    Let me stop here for now.
    but I thought Jesus had died for our sins, or was that in vain?
  10. Standard memberScriabin
    Done Asking
    Washington, D.C.
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    02 May '09 19:00
    Originally posted by jaywill
    This thread is an attempt to deal with obstacles to the realness of God in the lives of some people.

    If God is not real to you, I recommend that you consider that your sins are a problem. The Bible says that the sins of people make a separation between them and God.

    [b]"No, Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy th ...[text shortened]... e is no problem to substantiating the reality of God.

    Let me stop here for now.
    please stop altogether.

    the arrogance of this is beyond belief, it is almost comic
  11. Joined
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    02 May '09 19:10
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    but I thought Jesus had died for our sins, or was that in vain?
    Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine!
  12. Joined
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    02 May '09 21:301 edit
    Originally posted by Scriabin
    please stop altogether.

    the arrogance of this is beyond belief, it is almost comic
    edit ...
  13. Joined
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    03 May '09 02:551 edit
    Man is a three dimensional being.

    1.) There is a part of man that substantiates physical reality, his human body.

    2.) There is a part of man which substantiates pyschological reality- the human soul.

    3.) There is a part of man which substantiates spiritual reality - the human spirit.

    The human being is composed of the spirit, the soul, and the body - three parts designed to interact with three realms of reality.

    This passage points out that man is composed of three parts - spirit, soul, body

    "And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:23)

    Though the normal man is composed of three parts the innermost part, the human spirit of the unrepentent is deadened and comatose. Because one third of the fallen man is deadened and comatose she or he cannot substantiate spiritual reality.

    The deadened human spirit of the sinner places the three dimensional man at the disadvantage of operating in the world only in two dimensions. His soul is alive. His body is alive. But His human spirit needs to be resurrected since the fall of Adam. The innermost part of man, his "kernel", his "nucleus" needs to be reborn.

    When the sinner receives forgiveness upon believing into Christ, the dead and comatose human spirit is enlivened. It is made alive in regeneration because righteousness has been imputed to the repentent believer.

    This passage shows that the human spirit is made alive because the record of guilt has been destroyed upon believing into Jesus:

    " ... the spirit is life because of righteousness" (Romans 8:10)

    That means that the deadened human spirit is made alive with God Himself as the ZOE - divine life because of righteousness. Because of righteousness being imputed to the believer, the deadened human spirit comes alive. The coming alive of the human spirit enables him to now substantiate spiritual reality.

    Here again Jesus teaches that in the born again experience the human spirit is born via the touch of the Spirit which is God Himself with the human spirit.

    "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)

    The first instance of spirit is capitalized in this translation. That means it is the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Triune God which is signified. The second instance of spirit is with a small s to designate the human spirit of man.

    That part of man which is born of the Spirit which is God is the human spirit. The human spirit becomes alive because of righteousness. The two dimensional man now has added the interaction with the third dimension of the spiritual.

    Sins deadened one third of the human being making him incomplete. He is dead in one part. But the deadened human spirit, making God not real, begins to touch and taste God upon its new birth. And it is born because Christ Himself as righteousness is imputed by God to the repentent believer in Christ:

    " ... the spirit is life because of righteousness" (Rom. 8:10)

    If you have not believed to receive Jesus your spirit is dead. It is comatose. Though true reality consists of three realms you are only functioning on two of those realms.

    This is a little deeper look at why the Bible says "But your iniquities have made a SEPARATION between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear." (Isa. 59:2)

    The "separation" in other words is the deadened human spirit. The removal of the "separation" is the imputation of Christ Himself as your righteousness causing the deadened human spirit to become ZOE (divine) life.

    Deep within the repentent sinner is "organically" joined to the Lord Jesus as one mingled spirit.

    "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

    This is marvelous.
  14. Joined
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    03 May '09 11:18
    Originally posted by generalissimo
    but I thought Jesus had died for our sins, or was that in vain?
    ===========================
    but I thought Jesus had died for our sins, or was that in vain?
    ====================================


    He did die for the sin of the whole world.

    "The next day he [John the Baptist] saw Jesus coming to him and said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29).

    Jesus Himself said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone who believes into Him would not perish but have eternal life."(John 3:16)

    He died for the whole world that everyone who believes into Him would be saved from perishing but would receive God Himself into their being as "eternal life".

    So Paul also says that - "the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (1 Tim 4:10)

    "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe" I take to mean that Jesus does to save all people from their sins, and it is effectual to all who believe. [/b]

    The apostle John says He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world also:

    "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for those of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

    In John's vision of the salvation of all these people He does not see the whole world. But He does see people out of every nation and tribe and tongue from the whole world:

    "And after these things I saw, and behold, there was a great multitude which no one could number, out of every nation and all tribes and peoples nd tingues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes and palm branches in their hands." (Rev. 7:9)

    In Revelation the profound things of God's eternal purpose were made known to John "by signs". I interpret this "sign" in chapter seven to reveal that people out of all human cultures, nations, tribes, etc. were there saved before God and Christ.

    Scripture says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentence.

    "The Lord does not delay regarding the promise, as some count delay, but is long suffering toward you, not intending that any perish but that all advance to repentence." (2 Pet. 3:9)

    In the final sign of the ultimate consummation of God's salvation the New Jerusalem symbolically has its gates open to the four directions of the earth - north, south, east, and west. This shows the universal opportunity for all to enter into this ultimate purpose of God.

    "It had a great and high wall and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are the names of the twelve tribrs of the sons of Israel.

    On the east three gates, and on the north three gates, and on the south three gates, and on the west three gates." (Rev.21:12,13)


    Furthermore the heavenly declaration is that God has constituted a kingdom out of people from various cultures:

    "And they sing a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its eals, for You were slain and have purchased for God by Your blood men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign on the earth." (Rev. 5:9,10)

    So Christ's death was not in vain. His death and resurrection is the one event in human history, and indeed in the history of the universe, which must be totally vindicated. But not all will actually be saved though He died for all people from all time in all the world.
  15. Joined
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    03 May '09 12:561 edit
    Let's continue with this passage about Jesus yielding up his spirit in death:

    "And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit"

    And behold, the veil of the temple was split in two from top to bottom, and the earth was shaken and the rocks were split ..."(Matt. 27:50,51)


    The splitting of the veil signifies Christ's tore the separation between God and man. The death of Christ has abolished this separation between God and man for those who believe into Him, especially.

    The curtain beyond which only the Hogh Priest could pass once a year, at Christ's death, was torn "from top to bottom" . From the top the tearing took place to signify that it was of God in heaven that the separation is abolished.

    The man Jesus is the Lord from heaven incarnated - "the second man is out of heaven" (1 Cor. 15:47)

    This separating veil in the temple of God was torn from the top to the bottom symbolically signifying that sinners are no longer separated from the most Holy God as a result of the death of Christ.

    Remember - "Your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God". But Christ totally deals with the separation as to abolish it if you come forward to Him in faith.

    We can come to Christ praying "Lord Jesus, the separating veil between me and God has been torn apart through your death. Lord Jesus because of your redemptive death I come forward to God. I come forward boldly."

    The writer of Hebrews encourages us to come forward with boldness to the throne of God, beyond the veil -

    "Let us come forward to the Holy of Holies with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience ..." (Heb. 10:22)

    The evil and condemning conscience of man is put at peace when we come forward to God through the redemption of Jesus Christ. It means a great deal to once and for all have one's conscience made peaceful towards God. The relief is wonderful. The joy is deep.

    The separatioon is torn even as Christ's flesh was torn:

    "Having therefore, brothers, boldness for enterning into the Holy of Holies in the blood of Jesus, which [entrance] He initiated for us a new and living way through the veil, that is, His flesh." (Heb 10:19,20)


    Now this is really profound. But I would only emphasize this matter. We can come forward to God through the abolished separation with boldness. We need not be timid because Christ died and abolished in His flesh the obstacle and barrier between us and God.

    I love this passage - "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and RIGHTEOUS to forgive us ourt sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

    Here the emphasis is not on mercy, though God is merciful. Here the emphasis is that God is RIGHTEOUS to forgive us our sins if we come through the blood of Jesus. It is righteous for Him to do so. Whether God likes you or not has no effect. Rightoeusness is the foundation of His throne. And because His Son has died for you and you believe God must uphold His righteousness and FORGIVE - He is faithful and RIGHTEOUS to forgive us our sins.

    So we may come BOLDLY - "Lord Jesus you HAVE to forgive me. Lord God it is your righteousness that you HAVE to forgive me based upon the death of Christ for me."

    God is "faithful" in His word and "righteous" in the blood of Jesus His Son. Christ has fulfilled God's righteous requirement.

    The joining of the man with God can be commenced. The relationship can commence that we become "one spirit" with the Lord (1 Cor. 6:17) for eternity.

    This too is wonderful.
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