If God is not Real to you ....

Originally posted by twhitehead
What do I believe? I don't understand you.

Only a Christian could have this much of an axe to grind against God. Let's put it this way: you don't see a whole bunch of Christians hanging around in Wiccan forums stirring up the hornet's nest. Sure, there is the occasional person just itching for a fight, but for the most part, level-headed Christians live and let live.

Not so with those who consider themselves "former Christians."

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Only a Christian could have this much of an axe to grind against God. Let's put it this way: you don't see a whole bunch of Christians hanging around in Wiccan forums stirring up the hornet's nest. Sure, there is the occasional person just itching for a fight, but for the most part, level-headed Christians live and let live.

Not so with those who consider themselves "former Christians."

What I previously wrote - let it be washed away in the blood of Jesus.

Let it pass away into non-rememberance. Let it do no more damage.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Only a Christian could have this much of an axe to grind against God. Let's put it this way: you don't see a whole bunch of Christians hanging around in Wiccan forums stirring up the hornet's nest. Sure, there is the occasional person just itching for a fight, but for the most part, level-headed Christians live and let live.

Not so with those who consider themselves "former Christians."

FWIW, my experiences on this forum aren't at all in line with your assertion that "level-headed Christians live and let live." Almost without exception the "atheists" on these forums have discussed issues honestly and reasonably, while there have been a number of "Christians" that have resorted to one or more of the following: personal attacks, dishonesty, stalking, badgering, pack mentality, etc. While it may be that the more vocal "Christians" are not "level-headed", you're really kidding yourself here. From my experience, hell hath no fury like a Christian who is presented with beliefs that are contrary to his own.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
FWIW, my experiences on this forum aren't at all in line with your assertion that "level-headed Christians live and let live." Almost without exception the "atheists" on these forums have discussed issues honestly and reasonably, while there have been a number of "Christians" that have resorted to one or more of the following: personal attacks, dishonest ...[text shortened]... no fury like a Christian who is presented with beliefs that are contrary to his own.

Funny, but the same charge you level at those here who find their belief system threatened, i.e., personal attacks, pack mentality and etc., is the calling card of the majority of the atheists, as witnessed by an overwhelming amount of posts.

Whereas those believers who resort to such behavior are doing so because they lack the mental sophistication or dexterity to keep pace with the various lingual gymnastics their counterparts readily engage in, one cannot fathom what keeps the other side of the aisle so thoroughly engrossed. Are they after truth for themselves or others?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Only a Christian could have this much of an axe to grind against God. Let's put it this way: you don't see a whole bunch of Christians hanging around in Wiccan forums stirring up the hornet's nest. Sure, there is the occasional person just itching for a fight, but for the most part, level-headed Christians live and let live.

Not so with those who consider themselves "former Christians."

As far as I am aware, I have never met a Wiccan. I grew up amongst Christians and over 99% of the people I know claim to be Christian. I came to this forum initially because some Christians in the US at the time were not willing to 'live and let live' and wanted to get ID taught in science class and I thought it was an interesting topic and brought it up in debates and was sent here.
I could give a whole list of reasons why I continued to participate in this forum, but I doubt you would believe me, you probably have a vested interest in believing that I am secretly a Christian and so will block out any contradictory evidence - such is the nature of self delusion.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
FWIW, my experiences on this forum aren't at all in line with your assertion that "level-headed Christians live and let live." Almost without exception the "atheists" on these forums have discussed issues honestly and reasonably, while there have been a number of "Christians" that have resorted to one or more of the following: personal attacks, dishonest ...[text shortened]... no fury like a Christian who is presented with beliefs that are contrary to his own.

Basically you are attracting to yourself what you give out. There is a subtle contempt in everything you post about Christians and Christianity and it was there from the start. In the end all you did was unconsciously prove to yourself that which you already assumed from the beginning- it was a self fulfilling prophecy created by your own mind.

Whatever you say about Christians at least many of us hang around until the debate has been followed through to the end. Your pattern is to say something controversial and then dissappear just before someone has you for breakfast on it (eg sacrifice of christ thread).

Why don't you think about what YOU do when presented with a difficult argument for a change? It seems to me all you do is accuse the person presenting the argument of lying or deceit or just drfit away to some other thread.

Have you ever considered that mush of the animosity you have received is just plain frustration?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Funny, but the same charge you level at those here who find their belief system threatened, i.e., personal attacks, pack mentality and etc., is [b]the calling card of the majority of the atheists, as witnessed by an overwhelming amount of posts.

Whereas those believers who resort to such behavior are doing so because they lack the mental sophisticat ...[text shortened]... other side of the aisle so thoroughly engrossed. Are they after truth for themselves or others?[/b]

Other than some flamers, for the most part it seems that the atheists seek to point out incoherence where it exists within the various systems of belief. From what I've seen, they are often successful. The "overwhelming amount of posts" often seem to be rooted in them trying to engage in a discussion based in reason with those who attempt to defend inconsistencies in their system of belief. Seems to me that, for the most part, the atheists are after truth for both themselves and others.

"Whereas those believers who resort to such behavior are doing so because they lack the mental sophistication or dexterity to keep pace with the various lingual gymnastics their counterparts readily engage in"

Seems like you are asserting that such behavior is justified when a "believer" lacks the wherewithal or is otherwise unable to present a coherent position.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Other than some flamers, for the most part it seems that the atheists seek to point out incoherence where it exists within the various systems of belief. From what I've seen, they are often successful. The "overwhelming amount of posts" often seem to be rooted in them trying to engage in a discussion based in reason with those who attempt to defend incons a "believer" lacks the wherewithal or is otherwise unable to present a coherent position.

Seems like you are asserting that such behavior is justified when a "believer" lacks the wherewithal or is otherwise unable to present a coherent position.

------ToO------------------------------

...but the moment anyone gets close to a coherent argument against your position.....you drift away. 🙄

Here's a reminder from a fairly recent thread that you detached yourself from....

---------------------------------------------------------------
When Jesus says, "Depart from me, you who work iniquity", there's no reason to believe that He was speaking only of "deliberately...grossly sinful acts" unless you are bringing in preconceived notions.
------------ToOne-------------------------------------

My research into this suggests that in Hebrew and the Jewish tradition there are many different words for sin and different catagories of sin (-eg chet, pesha, avone, ashma, aveira). It's logical to assume that it's very likely Jesus used one of these words in the verses you have quoted.

If he did use one of these words then your position is going to be in trouble because it will imply that he used a specific catagory. What's also interesting is that as far as I can see there is no all encompassing word for sin in hebrew. If that's true then it would be impossible for Jesus to have been saying what you think he was saying because he would have had to have created a new hebrew word (although I believe he spoke Aramaic - anyway we'll see)

What will you say if that's what we find out?

Will you backtrack and admit you were off target in your assessment?

---------------------KM-------------------

This post is a repetition of what I wrote before. That is because I believe the truth of it is CRUCIAL. It cannot be underestimated.

Why is God not real to some people? Why?

" ... But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God. And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear."

When I was a young boy I had a very good friend whose house I use to play at. One day when no one was looking I stole something from my "friend". I could not resist the temptation. I knew it was wrong. But I WANTED the thing.

I also sneaked into an abandoned house with some boys. We stored some adult magazines there and we looked at the pornographic pictures. Other things I did. As I grew into a young adult behaviors like this encreased. And when I went off to college it was like I had a bag of morals taught to me by parents and teachers.

I looked into the bag so to speak and asked myself "Do I need this anymore? Not really. Throw it away,"

"Do I need this anymore? Na. Throw it away."

A lot of things I decided I no longer had use for. So I took them out of my bag of morals and went with the flow of the times. But from childhood up to adulthood it did not yet occur to me. What did not occur to me? That God was not real to me because of all my sins, transgressions, iniquities, wrongdoings, bad acts, evil deeds.

"Don't bother me about it." I thought. "I can't change! So DON'T BOTHER ME ABOUT THIS SIN THING! At least I am not as bad as THIS guy over here. I am not that bad. I do this good. I do that good. No one is perfect. So don't try to guilt trip me on the sin thing. Besides. Reverend Brimstone down the street cheated on his wife. And TV Evangelist So and So did this bad thing."

But the Bible didn't say that someone ELSE'S sins have made a separation. It said that YOUR SINS, YOUR INIQUITIES have made a separation between you and your God.

Out of maybe 100 people, few can grasp this. Maybe without God's mercy none can grasp it. Not many people can close the door and in private DEAL WITH GOD about their OWN sins.

The sense of distance, the sense of separation, the sense of alienation, the sense that God is not REAL comes from one's sins. Not the other guy's. "Your iniquities have made a separation between YOU and your God. And YOUR sins have hidden His face from YOU so that He does not hear."

When you have the sense that you are being HEARD in your prays to God. That is a step in the right direction. And that may call for you confessing your sins - in detail, specifically, enumerated one by one and AGREEING with God that this or that was an iniquity for which you request forgiveness, you are on the road to God becoming real to you. I mean Real to you.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. ... if anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous; and He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world." (See 1 John 1:8 - 2:2)

I believe that some readers of this post will be helped by this.

Now here's the thing about this attitude "Well, at least I am not as bad as this other guy. So don't bother me about my sins."

Say you have a shop of glass vases all staked on shelves. Then there is a big earthquake and they all fall on the floor and break.

Some may be broken in 100 pieces. Some others may be broken in 70 pieces. Others are broken into 30 or 20 pieces. Maybe some are only broken into 5 big pieces. "Not too bad."

Maybe a few are only broken into TWO pieces. Now those that are broken into TWO pieces may say, (Well, I am not so bad. This other vase is broken into 50 pieces. Now THAT's bad. I am only broken into TWO nice pieces."

The problem is that they are ALL BROKEN.

This is a limited analogy to help in understanding the Bible's teaching about sin - ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. We are all "broken". To God we are all busted, damaged, ruined.

Do you this see this? So each of us has to go to this holy and rghteous God and avail our own selves of the provided provision for each of our OWN sins.

It said that all have not only sinned but have fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus was not only not a sinner. He was GLORIOUSLY not a sinner.

Now you may say "But I am not a big sinner." But are you GLORIOUS? God created man to be GLORIOUS. Jesus expressed not only sinlessness. He expressed the glory of God - the splendour and radiant effulgence of God's glorious being.

We have not only all sinned. We have all fallen SHORT of being GLORIOUSLY right. Jesus is GLORIOUSLY Right.

I believe that some readers may be helped by this. We need to confess and agree with God that we are just a busted vase. We may be in only two or three pieces compared to someone else we know. Or we may THINK that we are not that bad off as someone else. But we ALL have to come, single file, one at a time and agree with God - "Lord Jesus, I am a helpless sinner. Lord Jesus cleanse me of all my sins."

The separation is dealt with and God becomes real to one. And this sense of the realness of God can grow deeper and deeper. In eternity it will consume our entire beings , if we are saved from our sins.