If most men...

Originally posted by Dasa
To deny God in the face of all the undeniable evidence - is to be thoroughly dishonest.

Therefore any comments uttered by persons fitting that description - are baseless.

You tell 'em.

Originally posted by Dasa
To deny God in the face of all the undeniable evidence - is to be thoroughly dishonest.

Therefore any comments uttered by persons fitting that description - are baseless.

There is no undeniable evidence. There isn't any evidence outside of religious texts.

If religion were to be erased from our minds and all the religious texts were to be destroyed would anybody convert back to religion based on evidence thereof?
The answer is a resounding NO. In other words, there is NO evidence of any kind of god to be found anywhere be it undeniable or not.

Originally posted by tomtom232
There is no undeniable evidence. There isn't any evidence outside of religious texts.

If religion were to be erased from our minds and all the religious texts were to be destroyed would anybody convert back to religion based on evidence thereof?
The answer is a resounding NO. In other words, there is NO evidence of any kind of god to be found anywhere be it undeniable or not.

I agree.
And as this didn't get noticed in another thread, and is directly relevant to this I'll repost this...

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?subject=Why_organised_religion%3F&threadid=142681

Originally posted by Agerg [What I was responding to at the time]
Did you read the entire OP!??

I questioned the need to believe in some specific god associated with the Bible or any other holy book. If we suppose a god was responsible (for sake of argument) there are still infinitely many other potential gods to consider that are different from the one you believe in.

A god exists does not imply your or any other popular notion of god exists.

Originally posted by googlefudge [My response]
In fact I will go further and state that all current popular notions of god, as described in any of the holy books,
are so manifestly human creations subject to all our imperfections and prejudices [at time of writing] and so open
to interpretation and translation errors through the ages that even if a god exists it is evident that they could
not be responsible for any of the myriad of religions present in the world today (or any point in the past).


No religion started or directed by a being that is even a shade of the power and intellect ascribed to a deity could
or would be as contradictory, varied, vague, overly simplistic, muddled, badly translated, unintelligible, open for
interpretation, and just plain morally questionable if not evil, as the religions currently in evidence today
or have ever been started at any time in history.


Thus if there is a/are god/s, and that god isn't simply malicious and messing with us, then that/those god/s
have not at any point in history ever come to earth, appeared to man, and instructed or guided us to do or think
anything.



This is true regardless of any knowledge or ability of science, or anything else, to describe reality and how it, and us,
came about.

For god to be even a shadow of what you claim him to be, he couldn't possibly have been so incompetent or inept at
starting and maintaining a religion or moral code, as is demonstrated by the faiths in evidence.

If god exists, and has morals of any kind, he has never been here. [Earth]

Originally posted by googlefudge
I agree.
And as this didn't get noticed in another thread, and is directly relevant to this I'll repost this...

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?subject=Why_organised_religion%3F&threadid=142681

Originally posted by Agerg [What I was responding to at the time]
[b]Did you read the entire OP!??

I questioned the need to belie ...[text shortened]... dence.

If god exists, and has morals of any kind, he has never been here. [Earth][/i][/b]

But He sent His Son which is just as good.

Originally posted by RJHinds
But He sent His Son which is just as good.

You missed the point.

Plus it is god himself who shows up and talks to people directly in the old testament.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Jews believe the age of the age of accountability is 12 or 13.
That is when they have there Bat Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_and_Bat_Mitzvah

That's true, I forgot all about this example. Very good.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Is that in a song?

The Seeker, by The Who.

Originally posted by googlefudge
You missed the point.

Plus it is god himself who shows up and talks to people directly in the old testament.

Well, that was really God's son too, in disguise.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I think she is referring to the teaching of another to disobey one of
God's commandments.

No, I was talking about leading a person away from God. To cause the person to deny God. To cause the person to reject Christ's redemptive salvation on the cross.

I'll get back to this in the morning, I'm pressed for time at the moment.

Originally posted by Suzianne
The Seeker, by The Who.

Thanks, I found it on YouTube here:

YouTube

Originally posted by RJHinds
Well, that was really God's son too, in disguise.

Ok, I will stick to just, you missed the point, of both posts.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Ok, I will stick to just, you missed the point, of both posts.

Okay, I guess I'm not too sharp today.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Okay, I guess I'm not too sharp today.

No Problem. But if you could properly read and then respond to this post (ill copy and paste
again here, I really wish this site had the ability to link to individual posts) that would be great.


" I agree.
And as this didn't get noticed in another thread, and is directly relevant to this I'll repost this...

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?subject=Why_organised_religion%3F&threadid=142681

Originally posted by Agerg [What I was responding to at the time]
Did you read the entire OP!??

I questioned the need to believe in some specific god associated with the Bible or any other holy book. If we suppose a god was responsible (for sake of argument) there are still infinitely many other potential gods to consider that are different from the one you believe in.

A god exists does not imply your or any other popular notion of god exists.

Originally posted by googlefudge [My response]
In fact I will go further and state that all current popular notions of god, as described in any of the holy books,
are so manifestly human creations subject to all our imperfections and prejudices [at time of writing] and so open
to interpretation and translation errors through the ages that even if a god exists it is evident that they could
not be responsible for any of the myriad of religions present in the world today (or any point in the past).


No religion started or directed by a being that is even a shade of the power and intellect ascribed to a deity could
or would be as contradictory, varied, vague, overly simplistic, muddled, badly translated, unintelligible, open for
interpretation, and just plain morally questionable if not evil, as the religions currently in evidence today
or have ever been started at any time in history.


Thus if there is a/are god/s, and that god isn't simply malicious and messing with us, then that/those god/s
have not at any point in history ever come to earth, appeared to man, and instructed or guided us to do or think
anything.



This is true regardless of any knowledge or ability of science, or anything else, to describe reality and how it, and us,
came about.

For god to be even a shadow of what you claim him to be, he couldn't possibly have been so incompetent or inept at
starting and maintaining a religion or moral code, as is demonstrated by the faiths in evidence.

If god exists, and has morals of any kind, he has never been here. [Earth] "

To be clear, for the above reasons...

My point is that if a god exists neither he, nor any part of, minion of, or messenger from god, has been here.

This is why I don't only not-believe in god, But why I actively believe that god doesn't exist... At least not in a
'all around us watching over us and occasionally giving us prods in the right direction while occasionally saving
(some) of our souls' kind of way.

[EDIT: I fail, and give up trying to make this hidden, sometimes it works for me sometimes not, and there seems
no rhyme nor reason as to why.
[hidden (Although I still don't claim to know god doesn't exist and so remain strong agnostic atheist) /hidden] ]



A creator deity who made the universe but otherwise doesn't really do anything to it, or know or care about the
existence of any beings inside it.... well it's possible, but with no evidence or rational for that belief I simply don't
believe.

But the god you describe... I find the idea absurd, and actively don't believe it because the evidence that should
exist if your god was real doesn't.

Originally posted by googlefudge
If god exists, and has morals of any kind, he has never been here. [Earth] "
You could be more direct. Why beat around the bush? What do you think of the God of the bible.

My point is that if a god exists neither he, nor any part of, minion of, or messenger from god, has been here.
What evidence do you have to support this conclusion. Not conjecture, not opinion; evidence. No playing the "you can't prove a negative" card because it is you who made the claim. The onus is upon you to prove it. Please do so or retract or rephrase.

A creator deity who made the universe but otherwise doesn't really do anything to it, or know or care about the
existence of any beings inside it.... well it's possible, but with no evidence or rational for that belief I simply don't
believe.
Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and the countless other Deists would take issue with that claim.


But the god you describe... I find the idea absurd, and actively don't believe it because the evidence that should
exist if your god was real doesn't.
And as the bible says, it's completely logical, in fact, intended for you to find the idea absurd.

Originally posted by googlefudge
No Problem. But if you could properly read and then respond to this post (ill copy and paste
again here, I really wish this site had the ability to link to individual posts) that would be great.


[b]" I agree.
And as this didn't get noticed in another thread, and is directly relevant to this I'll repost this...

http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/ ...[text shortened]... elieve it because the evidence that should
exist if your god was real doesn't.

I guess you got it all figured out. However, I don't see it that way because
I fine it hard to believe mankind has been making such a big thing over a
Being for so long if that Being does not exist. I also need an explanation
for why I exist and how the universe came to be. Abiogenesis and evolution
just doesn't do it for me. Life seems to me way to complicated to have
just happened by chance. As some people say, "We will have to agree to
disagree." If there is no God then it really shouldn't matter to you anyway.
So, I think that settles that for the both of us. Don't you think?