If no God - What Meaning ?

Originally posted by Rank outsider
[b]Just a quick bump on my earlier question.

---------------

Ok. Let's try another tack.



This is not true, of course, but let's keep this simple.

Supposed I said that I derive all meaning in my life from the fact that I am the parent of my son. Everything I do in my life is simply a means to provide for him so that he can live as happy and fulfilled a life as possible.
...
Please explain precisely, and briefly, why, in the absence of God, this is not sufficient to provide meaning to my life?

This is quite a noble thing to undertake. It is meaningful.

Now let's take it a step further. You are a good parent Atheist, Okay? You do not believe there is God. And as far as I can see you like the other atheists have admitted that there is no meaning except we may certainly make one privately. You have, it is to care for your family.

What do you think of this. There was a very successful business man who was quite well off. He and his family were very well provided for. Yet his son got leukemia and was beyond curing. He was expected to die.

One day in the hospital bedroom the father and son were together. They both know that he cannot be cured and will soon die. The son asks the father - "Dad, tell me about God."

The wealthy business wise man goes to the window. He looks out on the world. Tears are running down his cheeks. He manages to say something in a frustrated tone -

" I can't tell you about God kid. I don't know Him myself."

I heard this third person testimony long ago. Never forgot it.
You are an atheist who well provides for your kids. That's great. What will you do when they ask you about those things touching life, death, eternity and meaning ? If you are consistent you just have to tell them that there is none. You only work to cloth them, feed them, house them, and provide some learning and recreation and love.

Aside from these, nothing else awaits them but the grave someday.
Do you see the problem here?

Originally posted by sonship
[quote]
Supposed I said that I derive all meaning in my life from the fact that I am the parent of my son. Everything I do in my life is simply a means to provide for him so that he can live as happy and fulfilled a life as possible.
...
Please explain precisely, and briefly, why, in the absence of God, this is not sufficient to provide meaning to my lif ...[text shortened]... side from these, nothing else awaits them but the grave someday.
Do you see the problem here?

imagine your child lies dying in a hospital bed, he turns to you in his last moments and says - 'tell me about allah'...............what you gonna say sonship, see you have a problem there!

Originally posted by sonship
[quote]
Supposed I said that I derive all meaning in my life from the fact that I am the parent of my son. Everything I do in my life is simply a means to provide for him so that he can live as happy and fulfilled a life as possible.
...
Please explain precisely, and briefly, why, in the absence of God, this is not sufficient to provide meaning to my lif ...[text shortened]... side from these, nothing else awaits them but the grave someday.
Do you see the problem here?

Do you see the problem here?

The problem I see here relates to an inability on your end to keep things straight in your own head. RO provided a hypothetical situation that purports to show the existence of meaning irrespective of God's existence. You then responded that, indeed, his hypothetical was successful in that regard -- noble and meaningful, you said. You then go on to inform RO that to be consistent in such case, he would need to inform his kids that there is no meaning. WTF? You just got done agreeing that his hypothetical provides for meaning; then you turned around to tell him that in such case he must for consistency inform his kids that there is none. That's you contradicting yourself. That's the only problem I see here.

Originally posted by sonship
Aside from these, nothing else awaits them but the grave someday.
Do you see the problem here?

Honestly; NO.

Could you explain "The Problem" rather than just describe a situation where you think there is a problem?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
imagine your child lies dying in a hospital bed, he turns to you in his last moments and says - 'tell me about allah'...............what you gonna say sonship, see you have a problem there!

It is closer to the truth. At least you have a concept of God there.

Face it. No atheist has really denied in this thread that there is no meaning to life with no God.

Three things mostly you atheists have done:

1.) You have said that you make your own meaning (knowing that ultimately it is just a substitute preoccupation )

2.) You have not solved the problem of evil doers having the same right, and they're going virtually unjudged. At least adequately and perfectly.

3.) You have tried to pull the theist into the same delimma. Essentially some of you have said - "Yes, we just have a fleeting self made meaning. But so do you."

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Honestly; NO.

Could you explain "The Problem" rather than just describe a situation where you think there is a problem?

So says the fella who apparently hasn't had the burden of raising a child.

Originally posted by sonship
It is closer to the truth. At least you have a concept of God there.

Face it. No atheist has really denied in this thread that there is no meaning to life with no God.

Three things mostly you atheists have done:

1.) You have said that you make your own meaning (knowing that ultimately it is just a substitute preoccupation )

2.) You have not s ...[text shortened]... tially some of you have said - "Yes, we just have a fleeting self made meaning. But so do you."

You seem to be confusing theism with proof of a deity!
You are in exactly the same boat as atheists ... except you have an imaginary friend to talk to.

1. I don't know what you mean by the clause in parentheses!

2. Why do we have to solve that problem?

3. Correct. You make up meaning as we do.

Originally posted by sonship
So says the fella who apparently hasn't had the burden of raising a child.

I wouldn't call it a burden (well maybe sometimes) but he is doing fine thanks (12) and another on the way.

Originally posted by sonship
It is closer to the truth. At least you have a concept of God there.

Face it. No atheist has really denied in this thread that there is no meaning to life with no God.

Three things mostly you atheists have done:

1.) You have said that you make your own meaning (knowing that ultimately it is just a substitute preoccupation )

2.) You have not s ...[text shortened]... tially some of you have said - "Yes, we just have a fleeting self made meaning. But so do you."

2.) You have not solved the problem of evil doers having the same right, and they're going virtually unjudged. At least adequately and perfectly.

is it a problem atheists need to solve? does it in anyway shape or form make an atheist world view any less real? when you say same 'right' what are you referring to?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b] 2.) You have not solved the problem of evil doers having the same right, and they're going virtually unjudged. At least adequately and perfectly.

is it a problem atheists need to solve? does it in anyway shape or form make an atheist world view any less real? when you say same 'right' what are you referring to?[/b]

Also, and this is something he has done throughout the thread, meaning is not morality.

The question of "meaning without god"
and "morality without god"
are separate questions.

In his answer to my opening posts he was going on about how I hadn't explained how
you got morality in my answers... BECAUSE THAT WASN'T THE QUESTION HE ASKED.

I am not sure he's actually capable of sticking to the point without going off on
tangents.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote]
Supposed I said that I derive all meaning in my life from the fact that I am the parent of my son. Everything I do in my life is simply a means to provide for him so that he can live as happy and fulfilled a life as possible.
...
Please explain precisely, and briefly, why, in the absence of God, this is not sufficient to provide meaning to my lif ...[text shortened]... side from these, nothing else awaits them but the grave someday.
Do you see the problem here?

here is another way of wording your story -

on his death bed a child turns to his father and says -

'please tell me about the unified theory of everything in pure mathematical terms'.

his father replies 'can i tell you about god, its a lot easier and doesnt require a proper answer?'.

Originally posted by sonship
Now I would really like to know what difference any kind of life makes if there is no God. I don't know to start a new thread. Maybe, I'll just ask it here.

Now if God does not exist then what difference does it make that anyone lived, anything existed, how we behaved, what we "lived" for ?

Honestly. What difference does it make ?

Originally posted by sonship
If no God - What Meaning ?

"Now I would really like to know what difference any kind of life makes if there is no God. I don't know to start a new thread. Maybe, I'll just ask it here.

Now if God does not exist then what difference does it make that anyone lived, anything existed, how we behaved, what we "lived" for ?

Honestly. What difference does it make ?"

.........................................

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis "Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important." -C.S. Lewis (An atheist who gradually changed his mind)

"For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.” -Charles Bukowski (An atheist with another point of view)

Note: In my view, human beings are designed for fulfillment: infant nurturing; childhood teaching of manners, family and patriotic values; athletic competition; academic exploration; social life; employment; marital; and spiritual fulfillment.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote]
Supposed I said.......... Do you see the problem here?

This is quite a noble thing to undertake. It is meaningful.

Excellent, job done then. In fact, though I do draw a lot of meaning in my life from this, there is a long list of other things as well, but we needn’t discuss these.

Now let's take it a step further. You are a good parent Atheist, Okay? You do not believe there is God. And as far as I can see you like the other atheists have admitted that there is no meaning except we may certainly make one privately. You have, it is to care for your family.

I am not sure I agree entirely about the ‘private’ bit, but I will accept it for the sake of this discussion. However, your OP was about whether life can have meaning in the absence of God. And you have accepted that it can.

What do you think of this. There was a very successful business man who...........Never forgot it.

I don’t really think anything about it. I can’t really see why the parent couldn’t have answered the question better than this. But given the emotional pressure he was under, I will not criticise him for this.

You are an atheist who well provides for your kids. That's great. What will you do when they ask you about those things touching life, death, eternity and meaning?

I will answer him honestly. In fact he has already asked me about death. I have told him that some people believe that you go to heaven if God thinks have been good, that some people believe in an afterlife but no God, and that Mummy and Daddy believe that you just stop living.

He is currently inclined to believe in God and heaven, and says he will ask God to let Mummy and Daddy in when he gets there.

As for meaning, I would, if he ever asks, simply list the things that give my life meaning (one of which you have accepted does). He will no doubt share some of these, and others not.

If you are consistent you just have to tell them that there is none.

As LJ pointed out, this makes absolutely no sense. You would be asking me to lie to my son. You have accepted that my life has meaning, and now you want me to say it has none.

You only work to cloth them, feed them, house them, and provide some learning and recreation and love. Aside from these, nothing else awaits them but the grave someday.
Do you see the problem here?

No. What problem?

It would be much worse, indeed, if your God does actually exist. Then I have a real problem ahead of me.

Originally posted by sonship
Remember, I said perfect judgment.[/b]

Ahh, but there's the problem, see. This judgement is patently not perfect.

I suppose you could argue that judgement is simply the process of saying 'You've been good' and 'You've been bad'.

And if God said this, but then allowed us all to choose whatever afterlife we want (or none), then frankly I wouldn't give a toss what God thinks of me. He thinks being gay is a sin. I don't. That's his problem.

But judgement is inextricably linked to the consequences of this judgement. Once a judgement is made, consequences follow.

And here your God fails completely. It doesn't matter whether I simply don't believe in God, or rape and murder a thousand women. The consequences are the same.

Every justice system ever devised has proportionality built into it. Indeed, you can't have a system of justice worthy of the name without it. In fact, I think your God's system of judgement is worse than any other devised by man ever, and that is up against some pretty stiff competition.

You wonder how I can live in a world where there is no 'ultimate' and 'final' judgement and where both 'saints' and 'despots' all go 'unjudged'. You are asking the wrong question.

You need to answer why you would want to be judged by a system which treats the despot and the Muslim who sacrifices his life to save his friend the same way.

I asked this question to you, and others, some time ago. And boy did we see some frightful waffle and nonsense.

Rank Outsider

I will answer him honestly.

The answer that the man gave was very honest.

He said he could not tell him about God because he did not know God himself. That was very honest. He had no experience of God. What could he say?

I find the answer sad but honest. Fellowship and communion with God was available to him but he never sought it or made it a priority. He was too busy doing other things.

"If you're too busy for God, you're too busy."

When a crucial time (not the only time) came for him to speak from his own subjective touch with God, he had nothing. He wept because he had nothing. I don't know the rest of the story.

In fact he has already asked me about death. I have told him that some people believe that you go to heaven if God thinks have been good, that some people believe in an afterlife but no God, and that Mummy and Daddy believe that you just stop living.

If you are going to tell him about the Bible it would be best that it was not second and third hand.

I raised two who are now over 30. You told him that some people believe about "Going to heaven because you are good" . But my concern would be can they really see such a concept in the Scriptures ?

Anyway, how you cared for your child is of course your business. I began to teach them probably about God the Creator. I read the words of the Bible to them because the Holy Spirit will always impress upon a person's heart something more directly speaking to their heart then a human message. I knew the living God is behind His word. So I always wanted them to hear for themselves the word of God the way the word of God puts it.

What the Holy Spirit can impress upon the human heart is more deeply significant than what I could explain.

When they were older I always made sure that they were able to see what the Bible said first hand. For in life many people will tell them all kinds of things. I trained them. As they make their own decisions what to believe, they should at minimum know what the Book actually said.

Otherwise anyone can tell you anything is there in the Bible. Ie. "If you're good you will go to heaven" may be what some people believe. But is this actually the teaching of the Bible ?

I would say it is 98% Catholicism's natural concept which has no deep realization of justification by faith.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; Not of works that no one should boast." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Yes, some people believe that if you are good you will go to heaven. However what the New Testament said was saved by grace through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.

I respect the way you choose to answer your child's tough question. But the other thing I was careful about was understanding that God is not a God of death. It is not that man has to die in order to go be with God. It is not that God resides in some realm of death and we have to go to that death realm to be with God.

Though the truth of God is no longer a mystery once a man dies, it is more important that He is a God of resurrection and eternal life.

As my brother was dying of HIV from his persuasive "friends" I told him of the God of resurrection. He is the God of resurrection rather than the God whom we must be with forever in a realm of death.

He is currently inclined to believe in God and heaven, and says he will ask God to let Mummy and Daddy in when he gets there.

That is touching. You are in a peculiar position. And your honesty is notable.

Your kid will grow to make his own mind. I feel restrained in what advice I would presume to offer. However, if God is and is and is real, then for him to hear the word directly from the Bible will be of the utmost importance. For what the Spirit of God will speak to him through life in a most personal way will be based upon what He has said in the Holy Bible.

The Maxwell Bible stories series, about 12 volumes, with pictures and the major Bible stories broken down exceedingly skillfully to the level of young minds, I recommend.

These books for children go back some 60 years. They will not, in my opinion, hurt any appreciation for science. And the man who wrote them was close to God I feel.

What I am trying to suggest, albeit presumptuously, is that as an agnostic / atheist who not pouncing on the child for believing in God, let him hear the words of the Bible directly.

As for meaning, I would, if he ever asks, simply list the things that give my life meaning (one of which you have accepted does). He will no doubt share some of these, and others not.

As LJ pointed out, this makes absolutely no sense. You would be asking me to lie to my son. You have accepted that my life has meaning, and now you want me to say it has none.

No. I would not encourage you to tell any child that.
I think that I should not have put it like that.

I do not think you should heap on a young conscience something too heavy prematurely.

When this loved one is older, then you will not have to tell them. They will see you and know a lot just by observing.

Life is fragile. Don't you want to handle such a matter with prayer ?

No. What problem?

I never want to be in a position to say I cannot tell anyone about God because I do not know God for myself.

I don't mind saying "What you are going through I have never experienced. And it may be way over my head. But I can tell you God was with me through this matter, and through that matter. He brought me this far. And I believe whatever comes, He will continue to be with me through it all."

That is realism. It has nothing to do with wishful thinking.

It would be much worse, indeed, if your God does actually exist. Then I have a real problem ahead of me.

Why do you think that ?

It might be worse if you teach a child that there is no Savior, no Heavenly Father, no Friend of Sinners, no Son of God "who loved me and gave Himself up for me" - and he believes you and Atheism turns out to be wrong.

That would be the far greater tragedy.

I am not you. It is hard for me to imagine me as you are now. But I would rather say - "Son, here is this book the Holy Bible. It talks about Jesus Christ - quite a person. Now I don't know about this stuff myself. But I think it is important for you to hear the words of this person. You decide what you believe. Here is what Jesus said."

Better still is for you to meet the Lord Jesus ahead of your son. The fellowship you both will have in the Holy Spirit will be wonderful.