Originally posted by Agerg"Neither I nor anyone else is really justified in asserting how the universe was caused..."
Neither I nor anyone else is really justified in asserting how the universe was caused...for all we know there might exist some multiverse, of which our universe is just one transient little bubble...or perhaps there exists some god who names itself Snafefu 7 and likes playing planet rugby with it's other supernatural pals and so makes universes for no reason ...[text shortened]... hrouded from my perception so long as my senses function so as to receive only physical inputs.
Now you're onto something. It's true. We are not justified, based on our own authority, in telling anyone there is a God/creator. We cannot know that there is a God/creator in and of ourselves.
So how can we know?
The obvious answer is the God/creator would have to communicate it to us.
Then why isn't it obvious?
I think part of the answer is in something you said.
"If there is some supernatural facet of myself then it will remain forever enshrouded from my perception so long as my senses function so as to receive only physical inputs."
Now you know Agerg that I am a proponent of the Bible, and it seems so silly to make assertions based on the scriptures since everyone thinks it's just a bunch of myths and fables, but I'm not a child nor am I subject to vanities and illusions.
It's a fact, the truth is the hardest thing to tell. Lying is easy.
Originally posted by josephwBut I don't yet believe the Bible is true (doubtful I ever will), nor do I believe any claims from others that the Bible is the more likely to be true than any other holy books.
[b]"Neither I nor anyone else is really justified in asserting how the universe was caused..."
Now you're onto something. It's true. We are not justified, based on our own authority, in telling anyone there is a God/creator. We cannot know that there is a God/creator in and of ourselves.
So how can we know?
The obvious answer is the God/creator ...[text shortened]... and illusions.
It's a fact, the truth is the hardest thing to tell. Lying is easy.[/b]
As such I cannot accept as valid any claims of communication on the part of your god.
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Originally posted by AgergWell, ultimately it depends on how the speaker defines the supernatural. I know many progressive theologians who would wish to describe the supernatural in more naturalistic ways. God might be charactered as 'truth' or 'beauty' or 'goodness', as the actual property rather than, as in more conservative theology, the standard for such properties. God would then be a term denoting very natural phenomena, a transcendental yet not divisible from nature (i.e. just as a flower is beautiful: the beauty is not actually a material property of the flower but is a kind of higher-order predicate describing the aggregate properties of the flower.) Understood that way, there is a plausibly intelligible notion of the supernatural. God could just be a name for those transcendentals.
This is my bone of contention with any statements about the supernatural, statements about god etc... if it isn't natural, if there is no means to reliably gather any qualitative data that correlates with other understood phenomenon. if the only means you have to test for or perceive the physical/natural manifestation of supernatural phenomenon is with your se es such an entity exists then though a slightly pointless exercise your objection would stand.
I also object to the idea of supernaturalism and miracles, as normatively understood. I think the idea of miracles is based on a false etiology. People regularly see A followed by B and assume a causal connection, then one day they see A followed by C and assume some transcendent being intervening to disrupt the concurrence of A and B. There is clearly something very specious about this reasoning. There could be multiple reasons for C. There could be hidden variables which completely change the situation (as very often, in the case of medical recoveries.) Anyway, that is a separate point.
Originally posted by AgergI know what you mean. It's a valid explanation of your position.
But I don't yet believe the Bible is true (doubtful I ever will), nor do I believe any claims from others that the Bible is the more likely to be true than any other holy books.
As such I cannot accept as valid any claims of communication on the part of your god.
Do you want to know why I chose to believe?
It was because I knew myself. I looked around me at this place and realised something was very wrong with me and everyone else. Nothing I could find solved the mystery of it. So I dived in, and it slew me and then gave me a new life. The key was who Jesus was. Once I knew who he was I found that life which is in Him.
It's not so complicated as it all makes it out to be. It's quite simple. Too simple. Too good to be true.
We can't fix ourselves.
Oops! I think I just made a fool of myself again. 😳
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Do you all think Ravi Zacharias is correct on this first point ? You only have to listen to the talk for about a minute or two to get his first point.
It is that the universe reduced to any level of physical sublevel, in any form, to whatever minute degree, cannot have the reason for its existence within itself.
Who agrees ?
Who doesn't ?
&feature=related
Originally posted by greenpawn34Its the million dollar question: Are we real or do we exist in a "matrix"?
If There Were a God/Creator...How would you know?"
We wouldn't know. We would not exist. Why create us?
If There was no God/Creator.....How would you know?
We wouldn't know. But we do exist. So we create a God.
OOOh! I love it.
of course "creation" is just a story to satisfy our linear (chess) minds.
Originally posted by jaywill"Let my people think"
Do you all think Ravi Zacharias is correct on this first point ? You only have to listen to the talk for about a minute or two to get his first point.
It is that the universe reduced to any level of physical sublevel, in any form, to whatever minute degree, cannot have the reason for its existence within itself.
Who agrees ?
Who doesn't ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJmsK2s0uI&feature=related
😉
Originally posted by RBHILLYes RB.
By looking at everything around me.
I started this thread in hopes of having a discussion with those who deny the existence of God by asking a very simple question, but it seems that no one is willing to take me up on it.
It's really just a minor mental exercise. Imagine that there were a God, and try to imagine how you would know God exists.
Perhaps not believing there is a God causes one to believe they are above imagining there is one.
Originally posted by josephwEdit: "I started this thread in hopes of having a discussion with those who deny the existence of God by asking a very simple question, but it seems that no one is willing to take me up on it."
Yes RB.
I started this thread in hopes of having a discussion with those who deny the existence of God by asking a very simple question, but it seems that no one is willing to take me up on it.
It's really just a minor mental exercise. Imagine that there were a God, and try to imagine how you would know God exists.
Perhaps not believing there is a God causes one to believe they are above imagining there is one.
It ain't necessarily so -I had the feeling you were the one who was not willing to take me up on it
😵