If There Were a God/Creator...

Originally posted by Agerg
Neither I nor anyone else is really justified in asserting how the universe was caused...for all we know there might exist some multiverse, of which our universe is just one transient little bubble...or perhaps there exists some god who names itself Snafefu 7 and likes playing planet rugby with it's other supernatural pals and so makes universes for no reason ...[text shortened]... hrouded from my perception so long as my senses function so as to receive only physical inputs.

"Neither I nor anyone else is really justified in asserting how the universe was caused..."

Now you're onto something. It's true. We are not justified, based on our own authority, in telling anyone there is a God/creator. We cannot know that there is a God/creator in and of ourselves.

So how can we know?

The obvious answer is the God/creator would have to communicate it to us.

Then why isn't it obvious?

I think part of the answer is in something you said.

"If there is some supernatural facet of myself then it will remain forever enshrouded from my perception so long as my senses function so as to receive only physical inputs."


Now you know Agerg that I am a proponent of the Bible, and it seems so silly to make assertions based on the scriptures since everyone thinks it's just a bunch of myths and fables, but I'm not a child nor am I subject to vanities and illusions.

It's a fact, the truth is the hardest thing to tell. Lying is easy.

If There Were a God/Creator...How would you know?"

We wouldn't know. We would not exist. Why create us?

If There was no God/Creator.....How would you know?

We wouldn't know. But we do exist. So we create a God.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Neither I nor anyone else is really justified in asserting how the universe was caused..."

Now you're onto something. It's true. We are not justified, based on our own authority, in telling anyone there is a God/creator. We cannot know that there is a God/creator in and of ourselves.

So how can we know?

The obvious answer is the God/creator ...[text shortened]... and illusions.

It's a fact, the truth is the hardest thing to tell. Lying is easy.[/b]

But I don't yet believe the Bible is true (doubtful I ever will), nor do I believe any claims from others that the Bible is the more likely to be true than any other holy books.

As such I cannot accept as valid any claims of communication on the part of your god.

Originally posted by Agerg
This is my bone of contention with any statements about the supernatural, statements about god etc... if it isn't natural, if there is no means to reliably gather any qualitative data that correlates with other understood phenomenon. if the only means you have to test for or perceive the physical/natural manifestation of supernatural phenomenon is with your se es such an entity exists then though a slightly pointless exercise your objection would stand.

Well, ultimately it depends on how the speaker defines the supernatural. I know many progressive theologians who would wish to describe the supernatural in more naturalistic ways. God might be charactered as 'truth' or 'beauty' or 'goodness', as the actual property rather than, as in more conservative theology, the standard for such properties. God would then be a term denoting very natural phenomena, a transcendental yet not divisible from nature (i.e. just as a flower is beautiful: the beauty is not actually a material property of the flower but is a kind of higher-order predicate describing the aggregate properties of the flower.) Understood that way, there is a plausibly intelligible notion of the supernatural. God could just be a name for those transcendentals.

I also object to the idea of supernaturalism and miracles, as normatively understood. I think the idea of miracles is based on a false etiology. People regularly see A followed by B and assume a causal connection, then one day they see A followed by C and assume some transcendent being intervening to disrupt the concurrence of A and B. There is clearly something very specious about this reasoning. There could be multiple reasons for C. There could be hidden variables which completely change the situation (as very often, in the case of medical recoveries.) Anyway, that is a separate point.

Originally posted by Agerg
But I don't yet believe the Bible is true (doubtful I ever will), nor do I believe any claims from others that the Bible is the more likely to be true than any other holy books.

As such I cannot accept as valid any claims of communication on the part of your god.

I know what you mean. It's a valid explanation of your position.

Do you want to know why I chose to believe?

It was because I knew myself. I looked around me at this place and realised something was very wrong with me and everyone else. Nothing I could find solved the mystery of it. So I dived in, and it slew me and then gave me a new life. The key was who Jesus was. Once I knew who he was I found that life which is in Him.

It's not so complicated as it all makes it out to be. It's quite simple. Too simple. Too good to be true.

We can't fix ourselves.

Oops! I think I just made a fool of myself again. 😳

Originally posted by josephw
How would you know?

Well that's easy. He would appear as plain as day to us and talk to us and live with us and do miracles. After all, seeing is believing, right?

Originally posted by whodey
Well that's easy. He would appear as plain as day to us and talk to us and live with us and do miracles. After all, seeing is believing, right?

Is your first name Thomas by any chance? 😉

Do you all think Ravi Zacharias is correct on this first point ? You only have to listen to the talk for about a minute or two to get his first point.

It is that the universe reduced to any level of physical sublevel, in any form, to whatever minute degree, cannot have the reason for its existence within itself.

Who agrees ?
Who doesn't ?

YouTube&feature=related

Originally posted by greenpawn34
If There Were a God/Creator...How would you know?"

We wouldn't know. We would not exist. Why create us?

If There was no God/Creator.....How would you know?

We wouldn't know. But we do exist. So we create a God.

Its the million dollar question: Are we real or do we exist in a "matrix"?

OOOh! I love it.

of course "creation" is just a story to satisfy our linear (chess) minds.

Originally posted by jaywill
Do you all think Ravi Zacharias is correct on this first point ? You only have to listen to the talk for about a minute or two to get his first point.

It is that the universe reduced to any level of physical sublevel, in any form, to whatever minute degree, cannot have the reason for its existence within itself.

Who agrees ?
Who doesn't ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJmsK2s0uI&feature=related

"Let my people think"

😉

Originally posted by josephw
"Let my people think"

😉

Amen.

Right. And even some who do not want to be His people should think also.

YouTube&feature=related

Originally posted by josephw
How would you know?

By looking at everything around me.

Originally posted by RBHILL
By looking at everything around me.

Yes RB.

I started this thread in hopes of having a discussion with those who deny the existence of God by asking a very simple question, but it seems that no one is willing to take me up on it.

It's really just a minor mental exercise. Imagine that there were a God, and try to imagine how you would know God exists.

Perhaps not believing there is a God causes one to believe they are above imagining there is one.

Originally posted by josephw
Yes RB.

I started this thread in hopes of having a discussion with those who deny the existence of God by asking a very simple question, but it seems that no one is willing to take me up on it.

It's really just a minor mental exercise. Imagine that there were a God, and try to imagine how you would know God exists.

Perhaps not believing there is a God causes one to believe they are above imagining there is one.

Edit: "I started this thread in hopes of having a discussion with those who deny the existence of God by asking a very simple question, but it seems that no one is willing to take me up on it."

It ain't necessarily so -I had the feeling you were the one who was not willing to take me up on it
😵

Originally posted by josephw
How would you know?

You are falling into an age old trap. Your trying to use human logic to deal with the subject of God. It dosen't work that way.