30 Dec 10
Originally posted by jaywill[/b]You must know by now that going on about the joy of being a believer is not convincing one iota to an atheist, since we find our joy in other ways.
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Perhaps.
I must admit that my original response is in some sense facetious. I do not expect to see miracles and even if they did occur, I would explain them away in order to maintain my position of non- belief.
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At least you are trying to be honest.
====================== ...[text shortened]... n adventure ! This mutual abiding in the living and available resurrected Lord Jesus.
I didn't mean to say that the believed in is true. One of us is right and the other wrong, but we both believe in the truth of our perspective.
Likewise, someone who doesn't believe in the truth that the earth is a sphere (or close enough to one) still finds beliefs and statements and facts to support their belief, erroneous though we know it to be.
We all do this. everyday we select and sort through the endless and near infinite amounts of information to choose the ones that fit with our world view.
30 Dec 10
Originally posted by black beetle"Methinks whatever is not observed by us, it cannot be contained in our given reality";
Edit: "Did you think you could actually "see" God with your eyes or "observe" God with any of your physical senses?"
Methinks whatever is not observed by us, it cannot be contained in our given reality;
Edit: "You talk about the wave function. Have you seen it?"
I cannot "see" the wavefunction just as I cannot "see" a sound. The wavefunction ...[text shortened]... wn intelligence, or do you follow blindly somebody else's beliefs?
😵
Do you think you could be wrong?
"I cannot "see" the wavefunction just as I cannot "see" a sound. The wavefunction is a formula and it is accessed by means of Math";
Methinks there are a lot of things we can't "see" that can be explained by not just math, but by observing their effects on what we do "see". I can't see the air, but I observe the effects when the wind blows.
"Methinks whatever is known is by definition observable";
But then again, that which is observable can be misinterpreted. For example: Creation. Some say creation was caused by a Creator while others say it wasn't. Both individuals observe the same thing, but both have a different interpretation.
Why?
"I think we could know there is a God solely if this God were observable";
Indeed. But God isn't [b]known by observation. God is "known" by revelation. But, much is known about God by observation of creation. But that's another topic.[/b]
"Kindly please ask yourself how do you come to know whatever you appear to know: is this knowledge of yours really a product of your own intelligence, or do you follow blindly somebody else's beliefs"?
Please, don't insult my intelligence.(There's not a lot to insult. lol) Consider this; There is a verse in the Bible that says God is not a respecter of persons. I'm pulling it out of it's context to make this point. Intelligence is not a prerequisite for "knowing" God.
But to answer your question- "Following blindly" is a fools mission. Let's say you and I are standing outside on a clear moonless night looking outward into the universe. I "see" the same thing you "see", but I think, believe, and conclude, after careful deliberation, that the sum total of all I "know" and "see" is greater than all it's parts. I "see" the handy work of a Creator/God.
But you don't. Why is that? Is it because I am somehow missing something? Am I afraid to die, so therefore I "blindly" delude myself? Why do [b]I"see" God but you don't?
It is because I acknowledge the revelation of God not only in His creation, but also in His Word.
Anyone who could pull off a stunt like the resurrection has got be be true. Denying the validity of the truth about Jesus isn't very intelligent. Jesus isn't a myth. The resurrection isn't a myth. It's true. I stake my life on it.
Have you considered that it is you who has "followed blindly" others beliefs?[/b]
30 Dec 10
Originally posted by amannionHi amannion. I was just thinking about you the other day. You've been gone a while.
Hi JW, just jumping midway in to the thread, hope I'm not covering old ground.
I'm an atheist. And, lo and behold, I can imagine that there is a god.
Now, what would I need for proof?
Well, a god is supernatural, so I would need clear evidence of supernatural acts - miracles, I guess you'd call them. I'd need these miracles to be repeated and verified ...[text shortened]... f the universe as any sort of evidence since that can be explained in other natural ways.
Jump in. The water is warm. I'm out of time right now to answer you properly, but you might want to look at my reply to black beetle.
Later friend. I pray you and yours are doing well. In case I don't get back soon, have a great new year.
31 Dec 10
Originally posted by josephwOn a moonless night I would see light*.
"Methinks whatever is not observed by us, it cannot be contained in our given reality";
[b]Do you think you could be wrong?
"I cannot "see" the wavefunction just as I cannot "see" a sound. The wavefunction is a formula and it is accessed by means of Math";
Methinks there are a lot of things we can't "see" that can be explained by not jus ...[text shortened]... "followed blindly" others beliefs?[/b]
This light pervades my vision at all times when I am concious, but it is easier to see in the dark.
Would you see the same thing as me?
*by "light" I mean light that is not generated from the outside, it seems to be some sort of internal "emission" of light.
31 Dec 10
2 edits
Originally posted by amannion=====================================
You must know by now that going on about the joy of being a believer is not convincing one iota to an atheist, since we find our joy in other ways.
I didn't mean to say that the believed in is true. One of us is right and the other wrong, but we both believe in the truth of our perspective.
Likewise, someone who doesn't believe in the truth that the e ...[text shortened]... less and near infinite amounts of information to choose the ones that fit with our world view.[/b]
You must know by now that going on about the joy of being a believer is not convincing one iota to an atheist, since we find our joy in other ways.
=====================================
Actually, many of the atheists I see doing YouTubes, do not look very joyful. They looked bothered, tied off, agitated, darkened within.
I am sure that people can find things to make them happy without God. But this is not a deep happiness. I still recall an inner emptiness gnawing away even in times of a party or concert.
The Bible says there is no peace for the wicked. Man needs to peace that results from forgiveness in the redemption of Jesus Christ. There is no peace for the who have not yet tasted this divine forgiveness.
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I didn't mean to say that the believed in is true. One of us is right and the other wrong, but we both believe in the truth of our perspective.
Likewise, someone who doesn't believe in the truth that the earth is a sphere (or close enough to one) still finds beliefs and statements and facts to support their belief, erroneous though we know it to be.
We all do this. everyday we select and sort through the endless and near infinite amounts of information to choose the ones that fit with our world view.
==============================
I don't think atheism can give a deep peace and joy that knowing the Heaven Father does. But there is with them a kind of happiness.
Even the prospect of going against God gives a kind of "rush" to the human ego. The thought of disregarding the ultimate - God, can be a kind of addicting "rush" to the human pride.
But if man is made for God, how could man be fully satisfied without God. He was here first. And it is God who designed us for Himself. I realize this sounds like vain words to you.
Jeremiah 2:13 has been very meaningful to some of us who thought to pursue a life without Jesus Christ:
"For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me the fountain of living waters, to hew out for themselves cisterns, broken cisterns, which hold no water."
In not coming to God, one has to hew out other things to replace God. These other things are discribed as "broken cisterns, which hold no water". The joy leaks out. The joy runs out the cracks and goes away. It is better to come to the eternal fountain of living water, to the living God in Jesus Christ.
Not only Solomon, who had untold riches, wives, girfriends, and arts, sciences, and wisdom as no man ever had, said 'Vanity of vanities. All is vanity"
But the Son of God cried out at the busy party that all "thirsty" peaple should come to Him for living water.
"Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.
But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (John 7:27-29)
When I first tasted the rivers of waters of the Spirit of Jesus Christ among the family of God, my cheeks literally ached from smiling so much. I touched a deep inner satisfaction that I did not know was possible. My face hurt from the grin that came upon me for days.
The next time you are happy, if you do sense deep down a vanity and emptiness in spite of this happines you might ask yourself - "Why is this not enough to make me fully happy ?"
You need forgiveness, peace with God, and the Spirit of the resurrected and available Jesus Christ flowing out of your innermost being as rivers of living water.
These words are trustworthy.
31 Dec 10
Edit: “Do you think you could be wrong?”
If you know I ‘m wrong, josephw, kindly please demonstrate how a non-observed by us observer can be contained in our given reality. Mind you, I do not imply that “the sound of falling tree in the forest” is non-existent if it is not heard by any sentient being; I imply that, in such a case, this sound is not contained in the given reality of the sentient beings that they observed it not.
Edit: “Methinks there are a lot of things we can't "see" that can be explained by not just math, but by observing their effects on what we do "see". I can't see the air, but I observe the effects when the wind blows.”
Of course. For the observation of each specific epistemic object we are using a specific epistemic tool. Math is merely the epistemic tool we are using in order to access the epistemic object known as “wavefunction”.
Regarding your paradigm about the observation of the air, an observation (even the way you pose it) is always required.
Edit: “But then again… Why?”
Whatever is observable by us, it is observable solely by means of our 6 senses. Our different interpretations derive from our mind-only different perspectives and from our mind-only personal subjectivity, whilst our same interpretations derive from the mind-only field of our consensus regarding the exact shape of our given observed reality as we grasp it.
Edit: “Indeed. But God isn't known by observation. God is "known" by revelation. But, much is known about God by observation of creation. But that's another topic.”
If God is indeed known solely by revelation, this revelation has to take place somewhere -and I argue that it takes place solely in the mind of the believer. In fact, this mind-only revelation is observable to the believer solely when s/he accepts blindly the existence of the non-observable God/ Creator, and as such it is not a purely metaphysic product but a product of her/ his conceptual awareness alone (a product of her/ his faith alone). Still, this kind of knowledge is observable, and again this means that God is known by the believers thanks to their observation alone that is based on their blind religious beliefs. I discard this kind of observation because it cannot be falsified.
Edit: “Please, don't insult my intelligence.(There's not a lot to insult. lol) Consider this; There is a verse in the Bible that says God is not a respecter of persons. I'm pulling it out of it's context to make this point. Intelligence is not a prerequisite for "knowing" God. “
I used the word “intelligence” in order to describe my personal conceptual and non-conceptual awareness. Excuse me for the inconvenience.
Edit: “But to answer… …I "see" the handy work of a Creator/God.”
I evaluate this evaluation of yours as a product of your religious beliefs alone, because your assumption is corroborated neither by philosophic nor by scientific finds and evidence.
Edit: “But you don't… …I stake my life on it.”
Yes, I know that the resurrection isn’t a myth to you and to your fellow Christians. To me is just another religious tale, but this does not mean that I do not appreciate to the hilt the strength of your faith;
Edit: “Have you considered that it is you who has "followed blindly" others beliefs?”
I consider my beliefs neither as “absolute truth”, nor as a product of a so called holy inspiration, nor as an “inherently existent truth” separated from my 6 senses, nor as an objective theory of reality. Therefore, how could I ever follow blindly other’s beliefs since I negate both my own beliefs and at the same time this very negation of mine that I evaluate it as fully subjective?
I wish to you and yours a fine 2011;
May All Beings Be Happy
😵
01 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillYou just nicely demonstrated my point.
[b]=====================================
You must know by now that going on about the joy of being a believer is not convincing one iota to an atheist, since we find our joy in other ways.
=====================================
Actually, many of the atheists I see doing YouTubes, do not look very joyful. They looked bothered, tied off, agi ...[text shortened]... r innermost being as rivers of living water.
These words are trustworthy.[/b]
You believe and need to support your belief with appropriate 'evidence'. What could be more appropriate than demonstrating that non-belief is inferior in some way.
I'm not sure what your point is for me. I'm an atheist. Bagging atheists to me isn't going to convince me of the worth of your point.
Claiming that believers have some deeper happiness that I cannot access is simply a claim, and of course I reject it utterly.
02 Jan 11
Originally posted by black beetleI thank you for your patients black beetle.
Edit: “Do you think you could be wrong?”
If you know I ‘m wrong, josephw, kindly please demonstrate how a non-observed by us observer can be contained in our given reality. Mind you, I do not imply that “the sound of falling tree in the forest” is non-existent if it is not heard by any sentient being; I imply that, in such a case, this sound is not c ...[text shortened]... ive?
I wish to you and yours a fine 2011;
May All Beings Be Happy
😵
If you would please indulge me this one last time.
You are no doubt a man of superior intelligence. I can appreciate that and am in no wise being sarcastic. I read what you say carefully and try to understand how you come to believe what you know. It is most interesting and exciting for me to have this opportunity to contrast my way of thinking with someone that thinks like you. It is both challenging and entertaining. I hope you feel the same way and gain some benefit as I am sure I do.
You are correct. God in His person is not observable by the senses. But just as I know that it is you posting in this forum by the observation of the manifestation in writing your thoughts and beliefs, I know you exist.
But what if this was some eerie science fiction computer program designed to make you think I exist? And someone else was trying to prove to you that I didn't really exist because I was unobservable to your senses?
God is not observable by the senses. You are correct in saying "If God is indeed known solely by revelation, this revelation has to take place somewhere -and I argue that it takes place solely in the mind of the believer."
I know you think it's crazy, but for God to be "know" in the "mind", something has to happen.
02 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by black beetle
Edit: “Do you think you could be wrong?”
If you know I ‘m wrong, josephw, kindly please demonstrate how a non-observed by us observer can be contained in our given reality. Mind you, I do not imply that “the sound of falling tree in the forest” is non-existent if it is not heard by any sentient being; I imply that, in such a case, this sound is not c ive?
I wish to you and yours a fine 2011;
May All Beings Be Happy
😵
02 Jan 11
Originally posted by amannionYou have a little point there probably. I use all kinds of attempts to win people to Christ. Some good some bad.
You just nicely demonstrated my point.
You believe and need to support your belief with appropriate 'evidence'. What could be more appropriate than demonstrating that non-belief is inferior in some way.
I'm not sure what your point is for me. I'm an atheist. Bagging atheists to me isn't going to convince me of the worth of your point.
Claiming that bel ...[text shortened]... deeper happiness that I cannot access is simply a claim, and of course I reject it utterly.
Remember that great Atheist Madyline Murray O'Hair ?
Recently they auctioned off her memoirs. Three times in her writings in varied places she wrote "Would somebody please love me?"
She needed the love of Jesus Christ whom she despised. And I think every atheist is in need of the joy and comfort touching the love of the Savior Jesus brings into our hearts.
I'm biased in favor of the Son of God.
02 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillBut why stop with atheists? what about Muslims, and Jews, and Budhhists, and Hindus, and ....
You have a little point there probably. I use all kinds of attempts to win people to Christ. Some good some bad.
Remember that great Atheist Madyline Murray O'Hair ?
Recently they auctioned off her memoirs. Three times in her writings in varied places she wrote [b]"Would somebody please love me?"
She needed the love of Jesus Ch ...[text shortened]... love of the Savior Jesus brings into our hearts.
I'm biased in favor of the Son of God.[/b]
There are lonely unloved people everywhere - some of them are probably atheists. Some of them may even be Christians.
And there are people who are pretty happy with their lives - some of whom are sure to be Christian and some who will be atheist. I would consider myself in that camp by the way. I don't feel like I'm missing anything in my life - I'm very content.
As for despising Jesus, that may be the case for some people, although I'm not sure how anyone can despise someone they don't know and haven't met. Me? I don't despise anyone, and certainly not the historical Jesus.
02 Jan 11
Originally posted by josephwEdit: “I thank you… …as I am sure I do. “
I thank you for your patients black beetle.
If you would please indulge me this one last time.
You are no doubt a man of superior intelligence. I can appreciate that and am in no wise being sarcastic. I read what you say carefully and try to understand how you come to believe what you know. It is most interesting and exciting for me to have this oppo ...[text shortened]... w you think it's crazy, but for God to be "know" in the "mind", something has to happen.
I am learning constantly during our conversation and I am thankful too.
Edit: “You are correct. God in His person is not observable by the senses. But just as I know that it is you posting in this forum by the observation of the manifestation in writing your thoughts and beliefs, I know you exist.”
But I can contact you anytime the way you please and thus I can confirm my existence by means of pieces of information that are all fully observable by you!
Methinks we could agree that you believe with all the strength of your faith that God exists, however it is obvious you have no way to confirm this existence the way any other existence is confirmed. In fact, this “ignorance” (that, according to your dogma, is fully discarded by means of faith alone) drives the Christian religion towards the metaphysic realm. You see, faith is extremely deep awareness focused on a specific concept: regardless if God is understood as an idol or as the Christian Godhead, one’s faith alone gives a specific shape to the reality one conceives. Since this fact becomes the cause of countless effects, it becomes one of the most powerful generators of one’s own reality;
Edit: “But what if this was some eerie science fiction computer program designed to make you think I exist? And someone else was trying to prove to you that I didn't really exist because I was unobservable to your senses?”
Well, since in this case I would be unable to observe to this extend the specific existence that takes place within my given reality as I perceive it, I would simply admit that for the time being I don’t know what goes on.
Edit: “God is not… …something has to happen.”
Craziness to me is merely a forgotten path that leads towards a given subjective reality, therefore I respect in full your opinion. But then, what exactly is this “something that has to happen” that is not strictly related to your a priori faith that the existence of God is a given, although unobserved, reality?
😵
03 Jan 11
5 edits
Originally posted by amannion===================================
But why stop with atheists? what about Muslims, and Jews, and Budhhists, and Hindus, and ....
There are lonely unloved people everywhere - some of them are probably atheists. Some of them may even be Christians.
And there are people who are pretty happy with their lives - some of whom are sure to be Christian and some who will be atheist. I would consider know and haven't met. Me? I don't despise anyone, and certainly not the historical Jesus.
But why stop with atheists? what about Muslims, and Jews, and Budhhists, and Hindus, and ....
There are lonely unloved people everywhere - some of them are probably atheists. Some of them may even be Christians.
==================================
I didn't "stop" with atheists.
And and in the ongoing process of sanctification, certainly, even the long time Christian needs to turn over more and more of the chambers of thier soul to God.
I am saved. And I am in the process of being saved. Fair point you have there.
You see "birth" is merely the initiation of life. Growth, development and maturity must gradually follow.
And the "new birth" of being "born again" is only an beginning. It is not an end in itself. It is the initiation of the growth of divine life within.
Far be it from me to suggest all Christians are instantaneously free from all depression the moment they received Christ.
After the 4 Gospels and book of Acts you still have 21 Epistles helping the justified to grow spiritually. And my experience is that Christians are not exempt from any of the soul maladies which trouble any other people.
As for Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists, I would say this. I rarely if ever meet one of these who will plainly say that they know God.
For example, a Moslem will insist that he knows how to pray, how to fast, how to give alms. He knows how to be religious.
Ask him if he knows God Himself. I think you'll find that he cannot say that he really knows God. He knows about God. And he knows this or that or the other religious rule as to what he thinks God wants.
He doesn't easily if ever confess that he knows God Himself, intimately or personally.
When I called on the name of Jesus I got to know God - not just about God, but God as my Daddy, my Heavenly Father whom I can sweetly commune with as "Abba".
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And there are people who are pretty happy with their lives - some of whom are sure to be Christian and some who will be atheist. I would consider myself in that camp by the way. I don't feel like I'm missing anything in my life - I'm very content.
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Justification by faith is to be approved by God according to God's standard of righteousness.
Sure, Yes indeed. Many can say "I am pretty happy with myself". But we need to be justified to God according not to our standard of righteousness but according to God's standard of righteousness.
And, even the most self satisfied people, if you gain their trust, will usually open up and confess "Well, there is at least THIS part of my life which I am not happy with and wish I could change."
I fully respect that you are pleased with yourself. I would wager that to your most trusted loved ones you probably would confide to them that there is at least SOME things or thing you wish you could change about yourself.
And not only so. But one can be happy with one's self very much but fail to see how their actions may have hurt someone else.
Some of the wounds inflicted on YOU, were inflicted by people who today are probably happy with themselves. They should come back and ask you about it.
And conversely, you may say, "I'm pretty pleased with myself". But is there no one in the world who could not stand beside you on your death bed, look down and smile with vengence ?
Be honest now, if not public.
You're happy with your self plenty. But I bet you did wound some people along the way.
So, we need forgiveness, according to God's standard of righteousness.
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As for despising Jesus, that may be the case for some people, although I'm not sure how anyone can despise someone they don't know and haven't met. Me? I don't despise anyone, and certainly not the historical Jesus.
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Jesus loves you.
Jesus loves you. These words are trustworthy.