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02 Jan 22
@fmf saidHow do you know what the reality of the universe is?
Human beings in cultures everywhere, right down through human history, dreaming and hoping that they might have everlasting life... it says more about the reality of the human condition than it does about the reality of the universe.
Thoughts?
@pb1022 saidPersonally, because it's not my field, I know relatively little about it. But I don't think my knowledge, such as it is, is going to be altered or augmented by sifting through the aspirations of humans regarding the notion of everlasting life.
How do you know what the reality of the universe is?
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02 Jan 22
@fmf saidEven if it were your (or anyone else’s) field, I think you or they would know little about it.
Personally, because it's not my field, I know relatively little about it. But I don't think my knowledge, such as it is, is going to be altered or augmented by sifting through the aspirations of humans regarding the notion of everlasting life.
But I think if you find someone in history who can credibly speak on the subject and demonstrates his credibility, that’s your best bet for knowing about the reality of the universe and the truthfulness of everlasting life.
@pb1022 saidNot being a theist, I personally don't believe that theology tells us anything credible about the universe or about a creator entity, if there is one. I think theology is merely a reflection and product of the human condition.
Even if it were your (or anyone else’s) field, I think you or they would know little about it.
But I think if you find someone in history who can credibly speak on the subject and demonstrates his credibility, that’s your best bet for knowing about the reality of the universe and the truthfulness of everlasting life.
@pb1022 saidHe probably did. I am fully aware of the cult of personality that was carefully constructed around him, piggy-backing on Judaism, in the decades after his death. And the result - Christianity - has been hugely successful, clearly, and I'd say this is down to the relatively simple core golden-rule-type message and the way it appeals to the hopes of its adherents that they will go on to enjoy everlasting life.
Do you deny Jesus Christ existed?
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02 Jan 22
@fmf saidSo you think He existed but He wasn’t who He said He was and the miracles He performed were invented/fabricated?
He probably did. I am fully aware of the cult of personality that was carefully constructed around him, piggy-backing on Judaism, in the decades after his death. And the result - Christianity - has been hugely successful, clearly, and I'd say this is down to the relatively simple core golden-rule-type message and the way it appeals to the hopes of its adherents that they will go on to enjoy everlasting life.
The reason I’m asking is He spoke on the reality of the universe and on everlasting life. So if you deem Him credible, then those questions are answered, at least to a great extent. If you deem him not credible, they’re not answered (to any extent.)
But I don’t think you can separate some of His teachings from the rest of His teachings and say He’s credible in this area but not in that area.
@pb1022 said“In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you” is a persuasive rule to apply in life regardless of who thought of it. The ability versus inability to apply it is one of the major wrestling matches that forms part of the human condition.
But I don’t think you can separate some of His teachings from the rest of His teachings and say He’s credible in this area but not in that area.
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@fmf saidSo you think the quotes and actions attributed to Him were fabricated? Or at least the quotes pertaining to His identity and where He came from, etc. and all the actions that would be considered miracles. You believe those were fabricated but not His statements and actions that did not involve the supernatural?
As I said, I am aware of what was claimed about him by various writers who were carefully constructing a religion in the decades after his death.
The reason I’m asking is a fairly famous person (think it was C.S. Lewis) said people only had three options when it came to determining who Jesus Christ was: He was either crazy, a liar or the Son of God.
But you seem to have found a fourth option: A good teacher and wise man whose statements and actions involving the supernatural were all fabricated by writers after His death.
Is that a fair assessment of your position?
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02 Jan 22
@fmf saidYes, and one that can be twisted.
“In everything, do to others what you would have them do to you” is a persuasive rule to apply in life regardless of who thought of it. The ability versus inability to apply it is one of the major wrestling matches that forms part of the human condition.
If I did something bad toward someone, I would expect them to do something bad to me in return.
Therefore if someone does something bad to me, I could justify doing something bad to them.
The much more challenging teaching is to love your enemies and not repay evil with evil but overcome evil with good.
@pb1022 saidI think everything attributed to him was written by people decades after his death. Many of them were probably sincere.
So you think the quotes and actions attributed to Him were fabricated? Or at least the quotes pertaining to His identity and where He came from, etc. and all the actions that would be considered miracles. You believe those were fabricated but not His statements and actions that did not involve the supernatural?
@pb1022 saidAs I said, a principle like “...in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you” is persuasive regardless of who thought of it.
But you seem to have found a fourth option: A good teacher and wise man whose statements and actions involving the supernatural were all fabricated by writers after His death.
Is that a fair assessment of your position?