1. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    08 Jun '14 13:523 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Has anyone other than myself, actually attempted to answer the question in the OP? The way I understood it, you were asking whether our views on income inequality were in any way related to our views on spirituality. Am I correct? Instead the discussion seems to be mostly about what peoples views on income inequality are, and nothing more.
    What about you ...[text shortened]... t extend do you think your views on income inequality are related to your views on spirituality?
    I don't think he is sincerely interested in discussing the matter and is perhaps using the thread to scourge a windbag like Kelly Jay. If he was interested he might have replied to both my comment and yours, but evidently he is too busy scourging. Oh well, hum ho, life goes on..
  2. Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    34587
    08 Jun '14 13:55
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I don't think he is sincerely interested in discussing the matter and is perhaps using the thread to scourge a windbag like Kelly Jay
    This is your second contribution to this thread, I think. This one is a personalized one directed at me, it seems. Your first one was about the topic and was a better offering. 🙂
  3. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    08 Jun '14 13:58
    Originally posted by FMF
    This is your second contribution to this thread, I think. This one is a personalized one directed at me, it seems. Your first one was about the topic and was a better offering. 🙂
    It was in reply to whitey and was not intended for you at all.
  4. Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    34587
    08 Jun '14 15:30
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Instead the discussion seems to be mostly about what peoples views on income inequality are, and nothing more.
    Not sure I agree with you. I have framed my questions to KellyJay with constant reference to his Christianity and he has chosen to answer in the way that he has answered. So I think his stance on market forces is either informed by his Christian beliefs [and he does not want to stress it] or his stance is separate from his Christian beliefs and that's how his mind map tells him it should be. Either way, it has been reiterated that this is the angle of the question all along so I think his answers have been on topic, even if I can't really put my finger on exactly what his answer is.
  5. Hmmm . . .
    Joined
    19 Jan '04
    Moves
    22131
    08 Jun '14 15:44
    Originally posted by FMF
    The topic here is 'income inequality'. The topic is not 'income equality' ~ nobody significant or serious minded is proposing that "everyone should make the same amount of money" ~ but, instead, we are addressing the problem of 'income inequality'. What bearing does your spiritual mind map have upon your viewpoint on widening and narrowing income gaps in the world today?
    The basic Buddhist ethical principle is compassion. Like the so-called “golden rule” (which, as whodey once pointed out, has versions across most cultures and religions), it is so general as to make application contextual, to say the least - that is, just trying to follow the principle does not guarantee that one will apply it well in each and every case. Nevertheless, I know, in any circumstance, whether my decisions are informed by compassion - or, say, self-justification. Both intention and action matter - they are not separated as in some ethical systems; but, again, intention cannot be an excuse for self-justification.

    Compassion, however, may not always look “warm and fuzzy” - as one of my martial arts teachers once pointed out. And the Zen literature is full of examples of Zen masters shouting, shoving and smacking their students - sometimes euphemistically called “grandmotherly compassion” - in the attempt to awaken them, including, sometimes, just kicking them out. (The quote by Balthasar, below, might apply to Buddhists as well as Christians.) Buddhist compassion also has an element of detachment, based on the Noble Truths.

    There are Christians who apply their understanding of the gospel message(s) to the socio-economic realm, and those who seem to not want to talk about it at that point. But, as with compassion and the golden rule, those whose economic decisions are faith-informed - and not seen as separate categories - might come to different viewpoints, depending on how they weight (relatively) different gospel principles (which is a necessary part of hermeneutics).

    Some might point to prophetic warnings about the dangers of wealth, and the moral obligation of the community to care for the poor and the otherwise marginal - as well as “the stranger” (which is where Jewish ethics are situated). Others might point to the early community of disciples who chose to share everything in common, “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need” - with capital punishment the result for those who withheld a portion of their wealth or property from the community. [NOTE: This model was not, so far as I know commanded - but does serve as an example of how one group of disciples recorded in the Bible saw things.] Others, such as Robbie might give greater consideration to passages commending withdrawal - insofar as possible from the affairs of “the world”, not from lack of compassion, but as a kind of exemplar-community. And on and on.

    So I am not casting judgment on this or that understanding of the Torah or the Gospel.

    As the Roman Catholic theologian Urs von Balthasar commented: “When it comes to shaping one’s personal behavior, all the rules of morality, as precise as they may be, remain abstract in the face of the infinite complexity of the concrete.”

    —Hans Urs von Balthasar, Presence and Thought: An Essay on the Religious Philosophy of Gregory of Nyssa (from the Foreword).

    Buddhist compassion, Jewish “to do justice and love compassion” and Christian “love of neighbor” I see as active principles - i.e., unless activated by being put into action, they really lose all relevant meaning. And I do not think that any of them can be “spiritualized” so as to remove them from the active realm of ethics - including economics.

    The Buddhist exemplar of detached compassion can be read here; it is a short read--

    http://workingwithinsight.wordpress.com/2007/04/12/the-monk-hakuin-and-the-baby%E2%80%94just-the-way-it-is/


    I am nowhere near that ideal - and the few times that I might have been, I didn’t think about it at the time. That is, I didn’t think about compassion or ethical principles or “being the Buddha” or anything like that - nor did I think about detachment: that wouldn’t be real detachment anyway. But I will say this: in some such cases, if I reflect back, it seems hard to tell who is the giver and who the recipient - and what exactly is the gift.

    In the Pure Land tradition - where I currently reside, but with a strong Zen bent - no one can expect to attain any level of perfection. I likely will always be wrestling with the Buddha that I am (to put it a bit paradoxically). Namu Amida Buddha: “I take refuge in the Buddha of limitless light” - that is not a person, let alone a divinity, but the archetypal Buddha of compassion, who accepts all refuge seekers into “the Pure Land in the West” - which is not a place, but a state of being. It is symbolical and mythological, in the strict sense - that is, a symbolical pointing to a natural reality that cannot be described literally without resulting confusion (so say the modern Pure Land priests and scholars that I read), which makes it rather like a Zen koan I suppose. [Sometimes, you can’t really understand how to ride a bicycle except by actually riding it.]

    Now, I’m no more into who are, or are not, the “True Buddhists™” than I am into who are, or are not the “True Christians™”. Likely I’m a pretty poor Buddhist. But if the Buddhist ethic of detached compassion did not at least inform my economics and politics, as well as other areas of my life, then I’m not sure I could call myself a Buddhist at all. In that context (which seems to be the context implicit in the OP), I cannot advocate for policies that would make the least well-off and the least-favored in society worse off, while making the most well-off and the most-favored better off. Nor can I advocate for policies that will advantage me while disadvantaging those who have far less than me. Nor can I opt out.

    That means that I will be advocating for policies that violate certain ethics that are based solely on the sanctity of private property and individual liberty. This is not a denial of those values - it is a recognition of competing values, and a relative value judgment thereon, from my perspective as a Buddhist (likely influenced also by my Jewish and Christic heritages). Others will make that relative value judgment differently - and some will likely condemn me for mine, so be it. I do not condemn those who honestly, for example, rank individual freedom higher in their ethical ranking than, say, “doing justice and loving compassion”. They are faced with the same ethical struggle in the face of often competing ethical values that I also recognize. (Anyone who thinks all those lofty ethical values cannot be in conflict in the real world, I would say are not looking straight at the real world - but, perhaps, through the lens of some utopian ideal.)

    You did not ask for comments on specific economic theories or policies, and this is not the forum for that, so I will not comment on that here. I will also not attempt to argue the specifics of what one might mean by terms such as “justice” and “compassion”. Such a discussion surely has its place - but one can hardly hold any view informed by such concepts if one empties them of all content, e.g., by employing a strategy of arguing to “radical ambiguity”. And one can hardly simply excise such concepts from one’s spiritual tradition, if that tradition itself proclaims those very concepts as ethical values.

    Actually, I’m not attempting an argument here at all - again, that’s not what you asked for. So, again, I will rest on the Balthasar comment above - which really recognizes that ethical decisions need to be made, insofar as possible, on a basis of “all things considered”, not just this or that ideal considered.
  6. Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    34587
    08 Jun '14 16:10
    Originally posted by vistesd
    The basic Buddhist ethical principle is compassion. Like the so-called “golden rule” (which, as whodey once pointed out, has versions across most cultures and religions), it is so general as to make application contextual, to say the least - that is, just trying to follow the principle does not guarantee that one will apply it well in each and every case. ...[text shortened]... ofar as possible, on a basis of “all things considered”, not just this or that ideal considered.
    Thanks vistesd. I just read through that and found it absorbing. It's past my bedtime and I still have some work to get finished. SoI will save my comments till tomorrow. There were one or two salient points that I might fancy picking at a wee bit! 😉
  7. Joined
    16 Jan '07
    Moves
    95105
    08 Jun '14 16:24
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Not sure where you get off saying that!
    What do you think a human level of wages are?
    Kelly
    lets say you own a small business employing one other person. you are the brains and the main reason the company makes millions in profit. millions that go straight int your pocket. your employee 'dave' does manual low skilled tasks, you pay him a low wage, just enough to feed himself. he works all hours so cannot take a second job. all other jobs available to him pay similar low wages. he is economically trapped.

    you have way more than enough. he doesnt have enough. is it morally right to pay dave such a low wage?
  8. Hmmm . . .
    Joined
    19 Jan '04
    Moves
    22131
    08 Jun '14 16:323 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    Thanks vistesd. I just read through that and found it absorbing. It's past my bedtime and I still have some work to get finished. SoI will save my comments till tomorrow. There were one or two salient points that I might fancy picking at a wee bit! 😉
    I’m sure there are any number of points in there that could use some “picking at”. 🙂

    I just wanted to try to deal with the question as you posed it - limiting the response to how my ethical position on income/wealth distribution (and economic issues generally) is informed by my spiritual path(s), regardless of what particular ethical conclusions I come to, or how I carry them out in my personal life, or how well I might do so - e.g., in various advocacy activities.

    I took your OP as a kind of reminder, and a challenge to look a bit deeper into myself. I didn't want to look at it from, say, my perspective as an (once, anyway) economist, or from just a philosophical/ethical perspective (both of which also inform my choices) - you didn't ask for that. I do realize that I meandered around a bit.

    EDIT: One thing that I can see that ought to be "picked at" is my rather passive comment on not advocating for policies that would make the least well-off worse off while improving the lot of those better-off. I also advocate for active redistributional policies across those groups, e.g., via tax policy - not willy-nilly, but in the current economic context, again, "all things considered". I have in the past addressed such issues from an economic viewpoint, from the point of view of theory, practicality and economic history (rather than a simplistic "snapshot" view). I'm not going to again.

    For the sake of this thread, I think it is enough that I recognize competing ethical values, that my particular ranking of them (again, all things considered) in any concrete context is informed by my Buddhist path, and that I have explained how that is so.

    And words like "inequality" also run into Balthasar's point - which I think you have clearly recognized from the get-go here. People who treat your question as being about any level of economic inequality at all - vis-a-vis perfect equality - I think would be confusing the issue. Is there some level of economic inequality that they would decry and advocate remedying, based on their spiritual path or religious faith.
  9. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    USA
    Joined
    24 May '04
    Moves
    157807
    08 Jun '14 17:26
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    lets say you own a small business employing one other person. you are the brains and the main reason the company makes millions in profit. millions that go straight int your pocket. your employee 'dave' does manual low skilled tasks, you pay him a low wage, just enough to feed himself. he works all hours so cannot take a second job. all other jobs avail ...[text shortened]... ve way more than enough. he doesnt have enough. is it morally right to pay dave such a low wage?
    No, I would say it isn't the right thing to do, but I again respect that
    everyone should be able to do with their own things as they see fit.
    I agree that it would be far better to share the profits with those who did
    the major amount of work. It would improve the quality of life for everyone
    and that is something we all should be doing.

    As the owner of a business he or she main concerns is going to be their own
    business and what they want to get out of it. They can take it upon
    themselves to do whatever they want, and not do whatever they don't
    want to. If they want to pay X even though they can pay more, it is their
    call. You take that away than no one can say they own anything, for that
    matter it will not matter how hard you work for anything, because if
    someone else wants your stuff they can take it. No one's stuff will be safe
    you either have a right to keep your own stuff or you do not.
    Kelly
  10. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    116784
    08 Jun '14 21:031 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    It was in reply to whitey and was not intended for you at all.
    As I said, you made an interesting point on page 2 of this thread, to which I responded:

    "How do yo think "excessive riches" should be defined or explained? For example is a home with more than one spare bedroom to be considered "excessive"? What about several sets of spare clothes? A few thousand in savings in the bank? Etc...

    Similarly, do you think higher education with the wider objective of bettering oneself commercially is something to be dissuaded against?"


    I'm interested in your thoughts on this.
  11. Subscriber64squaresofpain
    The drunk knight
    Stuck on g1
    Joined
    02 Sep '12
    Moves
    59228
    08 Jun '14 22:08
    Income inequality and spirituality? Meh...

    The rich get richer,
    the poor remain poor,
    some are born to work in coal mines,
    others are born to deal with diamonds,
    and all the while; the spiritual remain spiritual.

    Not sure if this answers the question, but I'm not sure what the question is, so...... tennis, anyone?
Back to Top

Cookies help us deliver our Services. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Learn More.I Agree