1. Joined
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    10 Mar '12 01:021 edit
    For a little while, I've had a series of short discussions with a retired pastor regarding the teachings of Jesus. Recently he acknowledged that he reads the words of Jesus through the lens of the writings of Paul and others whereby essentially making the New Testament/Bible his "Lord" rather than Jesus. It was refreshing that he had the intellectual honesty to recognize this.

    Hearing this, I challenged him to read the words of Jesus as if the rest of the NT did not exist. He said that he didn't think himself capable of doing so. At least he had the intellectual honesty to admit himself incapable of bringing intellectual honesty to such an endeavor. Had to give him partial credit there too.

    So those finding intellectual honesty in short supply on this forum and elsewhere should take heart in knowing it is possible to get some measure of it.

    Comments?
  2. Standard memberKellyJay
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    10 Mar '12 01:37
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    For a little while, I've had a series of short discussions with a retired pastor regarding the teachings of Jesus. Recently he acknowledged that he reads the words of Jesus through the lens of the writings of Paul and others whereby essentially making the New Testament/Bible his "Lord" rather than Jesus. It was refreshing that he had the intellectual hone ...[text shortened]... lsewhere should take heart in knowing it is possible to get some measure of it.

    Comments?
    I don't see a difference between what Jesus taught and Paul, I see the different
    prespectives as one is our Lord the other a fellow sinner saved by God's grace.
    I believe the Spirit of God teaches us, leads us, and guides us as Jesus said
    would happen.
    Kelly
  3. Joined
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    10 Mar '12 01:55
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    For a little while, I've had a series of short discussions with a retired pastor regarding the teachings of Jesus. Recently he acknowledged that he reads the words of Jesus through the lens of the writings of Paul and others whereby essentially making the New Testament/Bible his "Lord" rather than Jesus. It was refreshing that he had the intellectual hone ...[text shortened]... lsewhere should take heart in knowing it is possible to get some measure of it.

    Comments?
    Well the first thing is Jesus did no writing of his own, so there is nothing to compare Pauls or anyone elses writings with what Jesus spoke.
    But I have faith that God had his pinmen write down exactly what he wanted to be pinned in the Bible. If it wasn't correct then I have faith he would have had it corrected.
  4. SubscriberFMF
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    10 Mar '12 02:04
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    For a little while, I've had a series of short discussions with a retired pastor regarding the teachings of Jesus.
    Welcome back ThinkOfOne.
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
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    10 Mar '12 02:241 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    For a little while, I've had a series of short discussions with a retired pastor regarding the teachings of Jesus. Recently he acknowledged that he reads the words of Jesus through the lens of the writings of Paul and others whereby essentially making the New Testament/Bible his "Lord" rather than Jesus. It was refreshing that he had the intellectual hone lsewhere should take heart in knowing it is possible to get some measure of it.

    Comments?
    Maybe this pastor should read the writings of John more often.
  6. Standard memberknightmeister
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    10 Mar '12 17:14
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    For a little while, I've had a series of short discussions with a retired pastor regarding the teachings of Jesus. Recently he acknowledged that he reads the words of Jesus through the lens of the writings of Paul and others whereby essentially making the New Testament/Bible his "Lord" rather than Jesus. It was refreshing that he had the intellectual hone ...[text shortened]... lsewhere should take heart in knowing it is possible to get some measure of it.

    Comments?
    Welcome back - let's bury the hatchet on our past disagreements eh?But I suppose you won't be surprised to know that I disagree with what you say here.

    Jesus did say that he would send the Holy Spirit (after ascending) to guide the early believers in truth did he not?

    Therefore , it follows that his death did not mark the end of things. The Pentecost experience in Acts is evidence of this. Why should we not expect people like Paul to emerge after Jesus , guided by the Spirit to reveal truth?

    Intellectual (dis)honesty works both ways. In our previous discussions you seemed consistently unprepared to engage in any discussions about the work of the Holy Spirit even though the work Holy Spirit was clearly part of Jesus' words and teachings.

    I do hope (despite disagreement) that we can both take part in more meaningful discussions this time. If we both believe in Jesus' words then there can be peace between us.

    Peace to you ToOne.
  7. Joined
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    10 Mar '12 18:121 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I don't see a difference between what Jesus taught and Paul, I see the different
    prespectives as one is our Lord the other a fellow sinner saved by God's grace.
    I believe the Spirit of God teaches us, leads us, and guides us as Jesus said
    would happen.
    Kelly
    Quite frankly, I would have been surprised if you could SEE a difference between what Jesus taught and what Paul and others taught in the NT. What made the acknowledgement by the retired pastor "refreshing" was that he was willing to bring intellectual honesty where most won't.

    The words of Jesus are often taken out of context, otherwise distorted out of meaning or even dismissed by Christians because they don't have the intellectual honesty to SEE what the words actually say when it conflicts with what they have been led to believe by others.

    A case in point is the following passage where Jesus says that His true disciples will be freed from the slavery of committing sin:

    John 8
    31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” ... 34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35“The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 37

    I've even seen some Christians try to claim that Jesus is speaking of freeing them from the "penalty of sin", when Jesus explicitly states that He is speaking of "committing sin" which is absurd.
  8. Joined
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    10 Mar '12 18:15
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Well the first thing is Jesus did no writing of his own, so there is nothing to compare Pauls or anyone elses writings with what Jesus spoke.
    But I have faith that God had his pinmen write down exactly what he wanted to be pinned in the Bible. If it wasn't correct then I have faith he would have had it corrected.
    I'm not sure what this has to do with the OP. Can you elaborate?
  9. Joined
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    10 Mar '12 18:21
    Originally posted by FMF
    Welcome back ThinkOfOne.
    Thanks FMF, though I don't know that I'll be "back", per se. I posted this because I found the retired pastor's intellectual honesty -though limited- to be in stark contrast to what I've seen on this forum. I found it interesting and thought some who post here might also.
  10. Joined
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    10 Mar '12 18:22
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Maybe this pastor should read the writings of John more often.
    Can you elaborate? Don't know what point you're trying to make.
  11. Joined
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    10 Mar '12 18:59
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Welcome back - let's bury the hatchet on our past disagreements eh?But I suppose you won't be surprised to know that I disagree with what you say here.

    Jesus did say that he would send the Holy Spirit (after ascending) to guide the early believers in truth did he not?

    Therefore , it follows that his death did not mark the end of things. The Pe ...[text shortened]... we both believe in Jesus' words then there can be peace between us.

    Peace to you ToOne.
    But I suppose you won't be surprised to know that I disagree with what you say here.

    So what exactly do you disagree with?

    Surely not that the retired pastor "acknowledged that he reads the words of Jesus through the lens of the writings of Paul and others whereby essentially making the New Testament/Bible his 'Lord' rather than Jesus."?

    Or that he "didn't think himself capable of...[reading] the words of Jesus as if the rest of the NT did not exist."?
  12. Standard memberknightmeister
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    10 Mar '12 20:126 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    [b]But I suppose you won't be surprised to know that I disagree with what you say here.

    So what exactly do you disagree with?

    Surely not that the retired pastor "acknowledged that he reads the words of Jesus through the lens of the writings of Paul and others whereby essentially making the New Testament/Bible his 'Lord' rather than Jesus."?

    O self capable of...[reading] the words of Jesus as if the rest of the NT did not exist."?[/b]
    I disagree with the extrapolation you have made from what he said. I doubt whether he saw himself as being intellectually dishonest - that's no doubt your interpretation - he probably , like me , felt that Paul et al were an integral part of the whole story of the NT and he was able to discern that the Holy Spirit was bringing men to a more complete knowledge of Jesus through Paul and the Apostles.

    Such a theological understanding is entirely consistent with the teachings of Jesus regarding the Holy Spirit. All of his words below directly imply that teaching of the truth would continue on past Jesus's death.

    "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of Truth; Whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."—John 14:16,17

    "... the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, Whom the Father will send in My Name, He shall teach you all things" (John 14:26a)

    "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now . Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth"—John 16:12,13a.

    Peace to you ToOne
  13. Cape Town
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    10 Mar '12 20:37
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Comments?
    Do you have the intellectual honesty to admit that the words of Jesus are seen through the lens of the gospel writers? In fact, we learn as much about the theology of the various writers as we do about Jesus from the gospels.
  14. Standard memberChessPraxis
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    10 Mar '12 20:48
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Well the first thing is Jesus did no writing of his own, so there is nothing to compare Pauls or anyone elses writings with what Jesus spoke.
    But I have faith that God had his pinmen write down exactly what he wanted to be pinned in the Bible. If it wasn't correct then I have faith he would have had it corrected.
    "The pin is mightier than the sword."- Fred Reinfeld
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
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    10 Mar '12 20:50
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Maybe this pastor should read the writings of John more often.
    I think John more clearly reveals who the Messiah (Christ) was than any other
    single writer. John considered himself as the one that Christ loved. Well, read
    it. John explains it much better than I could. Just pay attention to the details.
    You can miss a lot if you don't. The letter to the Hebrews is a good backup.
    These two are very helpful in understanding all the quotes of Jesus througout
    the Gospels.
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