1. Territories Unknown
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    08 Aug '09 20:56
    "Intellectually impoverished."
    The phrase has been bandied about by both pseudo- and actual real-live intellectuals who consistently haunt these threads, as a supposed complaint against Christianity and/or the complete canon of Scripture.

    In their view (although never with any type of substantiation), Christianity is inferior to their singular abilities to meditate/contemplate/plumb the depths and give meaning to life. To hear them say it, Christianity is the bastion of fools, founded by fools woefully inadequate to the task of dispensing the wisdom needed for a purposeful life.

    Assuming their position is true (again, without requiring any proof for the same), how would one square this charge against an honest and accurate historical perspective? Wasn't it Christianity unfettered which began all of Western civilization? Wasn't it awe and adoration for God and His creation which inspired science? Wasn't it Christianity as the fountainhead before every seminal accomplishment man has achieved?

    When objectively considering the historical impact the Bible and Christianity has had on the world, it isn't too far fetched to suggest that--- without Christianity and the Bible--- nothing anywhere near the freedom, near the intellectual plane, near the regard for human merit would have been achieved.

    Without a parent, children are impossible. Man's achievements (even his ability to mock his origins) are the children; Christianity has made such steps possible. It makes one wonder exactly who the intellectually impoverished ones are.
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    08 Aug '09 21:00
    Christianity is the bastion of fools, founded by fools
    Founded by Christ.
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    08 Aug '09 21:04
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    [b]"Intellectually impoverished."
    The phrase has been bandied about by both pseudo- and actual real-live intellectuals who consistently haunt these threads, as a supposed complaint against Christianity and/or the complete canon of Scripture.

    In their view (although never with any type of substantiation), Christianity is inferior to their singular a ...[text shortened]... teps possible. It makes one wonder exactly who the intellectually impoverished ones are.[/b]
    Wasn't it Christianity as the fountainhead before every seminal accomplishment man has achieved?

    I doubt it. Early Christian theologians looked to the ideas of the Greeks, like Plato and Aristotle, to ground their doctrines in a strong philosophical base. The great Latin theologians, St Augustine and St Jerome, were also zealous devotees to the canon of Latin literature, the works of Virgil and Cicero. To say that Christianity is the origin of Western civilisation simply overlooks the substantial contribution of classical civilisation.
  4. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    08 Aug '09 22:08
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    [b] Wasn't it Christianity as the fountainhead before every seminal accomplishment man has achieved?

    I doubt it. Early Christian theologians looked to the ideas of the Greeks, like Plato and Aristotle, to ground their doctrines in a strong philosophical base. The great Latin theologians, St Augustine and St Jerome, were also zealous devotees to the ...[text shortened]... f Western civilisation simply overlooks the substantial contribution of classical civilisation.[/b]
    Not to mention the considerable contributions of non-Christians, like the Chinese, for example.
  5. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
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    08 Aug '09 22:10
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    [b]"Intellectually impoverished."
    The phrase has been bandied about by both pseudo- and actual real-live intellectuals who consistently haunt these threads, as a supposed complaint against Christianity and/or the complete canon of Scripture.

    In their view (although never with any type of substantiation), Christianity is inferior to their singular a ...[text shortened]... teps possible. It makes one wonder exactly who the intellectually impoverished ones are.[/b]
    One could just as easily say that if it wasn't for Christianity retarding our progress, we probably would have discovered and invented even more.
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    08 Aug '09 22:32
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    [b]"Intellectually impoverished."
    The phrase has been bandied about by both pseudo- and actual real-live intellectuals who consistently haunt these threads, as a supposed complaint against Christianity and/or the complete canon of Scripture.

    In their view (although never with any type of substantiation), Christianity is inferior to their singular a ...[text shortened]... teps possible. It makes one wonder exactly who the intellectually impoverished ones are.[/b]
    Get ready for the venom about to be spewed in your direction. I agree with you entirely, but thee will be the usual suspects attacking you and trying to make you retract what you have said or acccept their dim views of history and the world. Take for example the foolish posting on what other things might have been invented were Christianity not around to impede progress. This is a common leftist slur against Christians. I would love to see precisely how Christians impeded progress rather the propelling it. It will be put out there without evidence or supportive background information.

    The gentleman addducing that somehow what you said detracts from Orthodox Christians of classic Hellenic influnece is another common slur against Latin Christians. As if what you posted denied Christians taking what was of value form others who preceded them or as if Christians were not who protected the ancient classic manuscripts in the monasteries and weren't the ones who enabled the rennaissance.
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    08 Aug '09 22:451 edit
    Well Galileo Galilei thougth that the Earth moved, in contradiction with Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, and 1 Chronicles 16:30 (depending on your translation, but who would want to read the bible in Hebrew anyway?). And he was a heretic. Also his book was one of countless books banned by the church at one time or another. Banning books does not advance scientific progress. Hawking said "Galileo, perhaps more than any other single person, was responsible for the birth of modern science." Wouldn't it be nice if people like that were not persecuted by the church?

    I don't know how much further along we'd be without Christianity, we'd have had something else to hold back progress in the interests of political power, but you have to admit there were times they did a whole lot of impeding.
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    08 Aug '09 22:51
    Wouldn't it be nice if people like that were not persecuted by the church?
    No.
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    08 Aug '09 22:56
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    Get ready for the venom about to be spewed in your direction. I agree with you entirely, but thee will be the usual suspects attacking you and trying to make you retract what you have said or acccept their dim views of history and the world. Take for example the foolish posting on what other things might have been invented were Christianity not around t ...[text shortened]... cient classic manuscripts in the monasteries and weren't the ones who enabled the rennaissance.
    The gentleman addducing that somehow what you said detracts from Orthodox Christians of classic Hellenic influnece is another common slur against Latin Christians.

    How so? The early Christians were primarily Greek (and it is a misnomer to identify them as Orthodox. The Great Schism does not occur until some hundreds of year later.) Latin theology however does not emerge itself until the forth century (with the likes of St Augustine, St Jerome, St Ambrose and St Gregory the Great). This is not a slur; this is the truth.

    And I am not detracting from the contribution of Christianity to western society. But Freaky has quite exaggerated the importance of Christianity in claiming that only it is responsible for 'every seminal accomplishment man has achieved'. It is quite well known that St. Augustine relied heavily on Ciceronian theories of natural law; that St. Thomas Aquinas relied heavily on Aristotle for his theory on essence and accident in order to explain the divine presence of the Eucharist.

    As if what you posted denied Christians taking what was of value form others who preceded them or as if Christians were not who protected the ancient classic manuscripts in the monasteries and weren't the ones who enabled the rennaissance.

    There is a lot to be disputed about that. While it is true that monasteries did preserve classical manuscripts, since St Augustine and St Jerome themselves encouraged Christians to do this to encourage an understanding of rhetoric, monasteries were not very good preservers. Most manuscripts of plays of Plautus are damaged and incomplete because monks tended to erase the bits they considered offensive. Modern textual editors must try to reconstruct the plays from fragments.

    The point is irrelevant anyway. Whether the Christianity helped preserved classical literature, it is still not the case that Christianity is the fountainhead of all seminal accomplishments of man. The great orators and philosophers of the western canon largely came before Christianity.
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    08 Aug '09 22:58
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Not to mention the considerable contributions of non-Christians, like the Chinese, for example.
    Yes. Rereading Freaky's post, I notice that he is not restricting his comments to western society alone but to all mankind -- which is obviously absurd.
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    08 Aug '09 22:59
    Originally posted by rwingett
    One could just as easily say that if it wasn't for Christianity retarding our progress, we probably would have discovered and invented even more.
    Doesn't mean it's true.
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    08 Aug '09 23:29
    Originally posted by daniel58
    No.
    So you are of the opinion that the Church should persecute heretics?
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    08 Aug '09 23:34
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    So you are of the opinion that the Church should persecute heretics?
    Well I don't know if "persecute" is the right word but not listen to them, ban their books, sure.
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    08 Aug '09 23:35
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    So you are of the opinion that the Church should persecute heretics?
    Actually he said he was of the opinion that the Church should persecute scientific visionaries.
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    08 Aug '09 23:36
    Originally posted by daniel58
    Well I don't know if "persecute" is the right word but not listen to them, ban their books, sure.
    Not listen to ideas like "The Earth revolves around the Sun."

    No that isn't resisting progress at all.
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