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Originally posted by FreakyKBHOkay, your revised claim is that nothing anywhere near the intellectual freedom that we enjoy would be available if not for Christianity. I'm sorry, but I still don't really understand.
Nothing anywhere near the intellectual freedom that we enjoy would be available. That's a fairly simple concept to get your mind around, I'm sure. If you want to say that any intellectual freedom automatically trumps the statement, go ahead. You'll be reminded, of course, that some intellectual freedom will exist in hell...
And, it appears you've given up on your other assertion regarding the action of belief. Finally.
One more time: what here is supposed to constitute 'intellectual freedom'?
And one more time: do you have any support for your claim, or not?
And, it appears you've given up on your other assertion regarding the action of belief. Finally.
I've given up discussing it with you (so, yes, if that's what you mean). I'm too am happy that discussion is over.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHBefore the invention of the Christian religion and during its evolution in Middle East and in Europe thanks to its apologetics (which they are merely notes over Plato and Aristotle), the Eastern philosophers offered systems that they became the cornerstone of the Eastern civilization -a civilization full of art, of philosophy, of religions and of vivid culture in the Lesser Sunda Isles, in Angkor, in Hue, in Japan, in Tibet, in China and in India amongst else.
Nothing anywhere near the intellectual freedom that we enjoy would be available. That's a fairly simple concept to get your mind around, I'm sure. If you want to say that any intellectual freedom automatically trumps the statement, go ahead. You'll be reminded, of course, that some intellectual freedom will exist in hell...
And, it appears you've given up on your other assertion regarding the action of belief. Finally.
Back then the Asians were not Christians. So, can you explain briefly how they did it? Also, can you establish your claim that "...without Christianity essentially being the ruling ideology, intellectual freedom is non-existent”?
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Originally posted by LemonJelloOkay, your revised claim is that nothing anywhere near the intellectual freedom that we enjoy would be available if not for Christianity.
Okay, your revised claim is that nothing anywhere near the intellectual freedom that we enjoy would be available if not for Christianity. I'm sorry, but I still don't really understand.
One more time: what here is supposed to constitute 'intellectual freedom'?
And one more time: do you have any support for your claim, or not?
And, it appears with you (so, yes, if that's what you mean). I'm too am happy that discussion is over.
The supposedly revised claim is consistent with the first in that the assertion states that our current level of intellectual freedom enjoyed throughout Western civilization is a direct result of Christanity's influence. With Christianity as the ruling ideology (note how I am not here speaking of religion which passes itself off as Christianity), people are allowed to 'live and let live,' and history shows us that it has been during these times when man has been free to pursue his intellectual drives.
I find it beyond dubious that a person of your intelligence doesn't understand the point.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYour statement is false; the main agents that boosted the Western civilization are pure science and philosophy and not the influence of the “ruling Christian ideology”.
[b]Okay, your revised claim is that nothing anywhere near the intellectual freedom that we enjoy would be available if not for Christianity.
The supposedly revised claim is consistent with the first in that the assertion states that our current level of intellectual freedom enjoyed throughout Western civilization is a direct result of Christanity's in ...[text shortened]...
I find it beyond dubious that a person of your intelligence doesn't understand the point.[/b]
BTW, would you ever think to claim too that Abu Ja’far Muhammad (who offered amongst else the excellent “Al-jabr wal Mugabala” on algebra that it was translated into Latin and it was used for generations in Europe) achieved his aim thanks to the ruling Islam ideology? Or, in your opinion, the Maths have nothing to do with “civilization”?
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Originally posted by black beetleBTW do you think such accomplishments as you quote are being fostered today? Do we see open inquiry now emanating from the world or Islam... or something other?
Your statement is false; the main agents that boosted the Western civilization are pure science and philosophy and not the influence of the “ruling Christian ideology”.
BTW, would you ever think to claim too that Abu Ja’far Muhammad (who offered amongst else the excellent “Al-jabr wal Mugabala” on algebra that it was translated into Latin and it was ...[text shortened]... uling Islam ideology? Or, in your opinion, the Maths have nothing to do with “civilization”?
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHedit: “BTW do you think such accomplishments as you quote are being fostered today?”
BTW do you think such accomplishments as you quote are being fostered today? Do we see open inquiry now emanating from the world or Islam... or something other?
Yes I do, because I see civilization as an advanced state of intellectual, cultural and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, with extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and also the appearance of complex political and social institutions. And this is a process under constant evolution thanks to our philosophic and scientific abilities alone and regardless the miscellaneous “ruling religious ideologies”, as I showed you earlier;
Edit: “Do we see open inquiry now emanating from the world or Islam... or something other?”
Yes I do. The philosophic and the scientific community of the planet hold philosophic and scientific opinions without interference and they seek, receive and impart information and ideas with everybody regardless of frontiers, of different language, of different culture and of different religions. It 's irrelevant whether or not a scientist or a philoopher is a Muslim, a Hindu, an atheist, a Christian or whatever;
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHI don't understand why you won't just answer my frickin question about what you mean here by 'intellectual freedom'. Whatever. I'm fairly confident there's no reasonable reading of the phrase here under which your claim isn't ridiculous. Maybe because you're just so psychologically wed to your 'Christianity', you seem to think your claim is more or less self-evident. Those delusions of yours aside, a lot of us here seem to think your claim is absurd. I honestly think you would be extremely hard-pressed to show, in any objective manner, that the "intellectual freedom" (whatever that is supposed to be here) that we enjoy would not exist on a similar level without your "Christianity unfettered" (whatever that is here). If even just a basic, cursory reading of history is so conclusive on this matter (as you keep implying), then why not just present the evidential case for your claim? Otherwise, thanks for wasting my time.
[b]Okay, your revised claim is that nothing anywhere near the intellectual freedom that we enjoy would be available if not for Christianity.
The supposedly revised claim is consistent with the first in that the assertion states that our current level of intellectual freedom enjoyed throughout Western civilization is a direct result of Christanity's in ...[text shortened]...
I find it beyond dubious that a person of your intelligence doesn't understand the point.[/b]
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Originally posted by LemonJelloThe voice of the people is not the voice of God.
I don't understand why you won't just answer my frickin question about what you mean here by 'intellectual freedom'. Whatever. I'm fairly confident there's no reasonable reading of the phrase here under which your claim isn't ridiculous. Maybe because you're just so psychologically wed to your 'Christianity', you seem to think your claim is more or les resent the evidential case for your claim? Otherwise, thanks for wasting my time.
If there is anything that is self-evident in history, it is the profound and emphatic influence Christainity has had upon Western civilization, which itself is seen as the guiding light of man's progress.
Whether I was "psychologically wed" (or, in your case, psychologically divorced) to/from Christainity or not really isn't the issue. The issue is, has Western civilization been influenced positively by Christianity or not? In your totally unsubstantiated view, is has not.
To such a view, I really don't know what to say, other than perhaps to suggest that you read some basic history books.
Originally posted by black beetleI'm not talking about the belief system employed by any given scientist, philosopher or the like. I am referring to the general attitude of the world of Islam toward intellectual discovery. Is it friendly or is it other?
edit: “BTW do you think such accomplishments as you quote are being fostered today?”
Yes I do, because I see civilization as an advanced state of intellectual, cultural and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, with extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and also the appearance of complex pol ...[text shortened]... not a scientist or a philoopher is a Muslim, a Hindu, an atheist, a Christian or whatever;
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHOf course it is friendly, and this is the reason why we bow to giants like Rumi, Khayyam et all.
I'm not talking about the belief system employed by any given scientist, philosopher or the like. I am referring to the general attitude of the world of Islam toward intellectual discovery. Is it friendly or is it other?
The fundamentalists are fundamentalists regardless of their religion, and we could probably agree that you and I we detest to the hilt the Muslim theocracies of our days -I cannot show the slightest tolerance regarding Sharia, sure thing.
On the other hand the Western people we got rid of the theocracy and of the Inquisition and we won our way to democracy although our system is not at all flawless, however we still cannot get rid of the Vatican doctrines and of the Pro-Life activists that they cause the death of million Africans, to say the least.
Methinks we need more mutual respect and tolerence instead of generalisations. If we lend our ears to the people we detest the most, then, due time, love the way your religion grasps it, it could probably evolve
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Originally posted by black beetleWell, I guess your definition of "now" is a little more soft than is mine. By "now," I meant the present stage. The two men you mentioned haven't really said much of anything since they left the scene some 736 to 886 year ago.
Of course it is friendly, and this is the reason why we bow to giants like Rumi, Khayyam et all.
The fundamentalists are fundamentalists regardless of their religion, and we could probably agree that you and I we detest to the hilt the Muslim theocracies of our days -I cannot show the slightest tolerance regarding Sharia, sure thing.
On the other ha ...[text shortened]... est the most, then, due time, love the way your religion grasps it, it could probably evolve
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The point was, the world of Islam is violently opposed to intellectual discovery. Christianity fosters intellectual freedom. Beeg difference.
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHSo you made a substantial claim about human "intellectual freedom" and its relation to "Christianity". When I ask about how exactly you are construing "intellectual freedom" and "Christianity" you really cannot be bothered to give me an answer. When I ask you to provide your evidential support for your claim, you also cannot be bothered to accommodate. You just want to tell me that these are fairly simple concepts and that I should just read some basic history texts. What a waste of time you are.
The voice of the people is not the voice of God.
If there is anything that is self-evident in history, it is the profound and emphatic influence Christainity has had upon Western civilization, which itself is seen as the guiding light of man's progress.
Whether I was "psychologically wed" (or, in your case, psychologically divorced) to/from Christain n't know what to say, other than perhaps to suggest that you read some basic history books.
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If there is anything that is self-evident in history, it is the profound and emphatic influence Christainity has had upon Western civilization, which itself is seen as the guiding light of man's progress.
No, you're seriously deluded. If that were self-evident, then to understand the proposition itself would also basically be to understand its truth. But I understand the proposition and I find it implausible. It's nowhere near self-evident. You would need to provide some argument for it, genius.
Oh, and I don't know if you're just too dense to follow your own thread or what, but this is completely false:
The issue is, has Western civilization been influenced positively by Christianity or not? In your totally unsubstantiated view, is has not.
That has never been the question, and I certainly have not issued any "view" on that particular question. We were talking about very different claims you made (and in case you are too dense to figure it out, the question of whether or not Christianity has made a positive influence is certainly different from the question of whether or not Christianity is somehow necessary for our progress or "intellectual freedom" or the question of whether or not Christianity has had a principal or predominant impact in such areas).
At any rate, I'm done wasting my time with you here.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHedit: "Τhe voice of the people is not the voice of God."
The voice of the people is not the voice of God.
If there is anything that is self-evident in history, it is the profound and emphatic influence Christainity has had upon Western civilization, which itself is seen as the guiding light of man's progress.
Whether I was "psychologically wed" (or, in your case, psychologically divorced) to/from Christain ...[text shortened]... n't know what to say, other than perhaps to suggest that you read some basic history books.
The voice of the so called "god" is in my opinion the voice of the people who compiled the so called "holy scriptures". For you, a theist, your scripture is holy -but for me, an atheist, it is absurd and not holy at all. I respect your opinion, however I am determined to live in a country that is ruled strictly by the secular law, not in a Muslim or in a Christian or in a Buddhist or in a Hindu etc theocracy. In a democracy the theist can keep his faith to himself (the miscellaneous religious beliefs have legal protection and they have status as legal imperatives) and the atheist can keep his atheism to himself, but the society must be ruled solely according to the secular law.
edit: "If there is anything that is self-evident in history, it is the profound and emphatic influence Christianity has had upon Western civilization, which itself is seen as the guiding light of man's progress."
This is not only not self-evident in history, but also false. Religions are not contributing to the civilization -this is a task that we undertake by means of science and philosophy.
Furthermore, the Western civilisation -one amongst many- is not the guiding light of man's process. In fact, history proves that the human civilization as a whole is a globalized process based on the interaction of our different cultures. Your approach sounds like the dangerous mix that it was offered during the nineties by Bernard Lewis, Samuel Huntington and Laurent Murawiec.
edit: "The issue is, has Western civilization been influenced positively by Christianity or not?"
No it is not, because the intellectual freedom behind civilization is always crystallised by the philosophers and the scientists (the agents that they promote the Human race) regardless the core religious beliefs of their era at their soil. In fact, through time the religious personages were nothing more than obstacles, particularly in Europe during the era of the “Christianity's ruling ideology”. The Western civilisation started to evolve again once we reinvented the democracy (after the French and the American revolution) and we gradually managed to dismiss the ruling Christian ideology setting into motion the concept of the secular law.
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHPlato and Aristotle too said nothing during the last 2.500 years, however the Western civilisation was totally Aristotlean until recently🙂
Well, I guess your definition of "now" is a little more soft than is mine. By "now," I meant the present stage. The two men you mentioned haven't really said much of anything since they left the scene some 736 to 886 year ago.
The point was, the world of Islam is violently opposed to intellectual discovery. Christianity fosters intellectual freedom. Beeg difference.
And, no! The world of Islam in whole it was never opposed to intellectual discovery, although the West prevailed by force; but I would be wrong to claim that the force of the arms that eased the Western Christians to become stronger than the Muslims is a result of the "fact" that "Christianity fosters intellectual freedom"
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Originally posted by LemonJelloWell, it's probably for the best that you are done wasting your time, because it really is a waste of time to argue something so incredibly obvious.
So you made a substantial claim about human "intellectual freedom" and its relation to "Christianity". When I ask about how exactly you are construing "intellectual freedom" and "Christianity" you really cannot be bothered to give me an answer. When I ask you to provide your evidential support for your claim, you also cannot be bothered to accommodate. ...[text shortened]... pact in such areas).
At any rate, I'm done wasting my time with you here.
You've been desperately trying to parse out such things concepts as "intellectual freedom" and the impact Christainity has had on our intellectual pursuits, when only an idiot or incredibly obstinate person would persist.
Yes, I refuse to support the obvious, because we both know this isn't the issue. If you need a history lesson and you find yourself too-too tired to open a history book, then just Google the phrase "influence of Christianity on history" and start reading the 47M entries that follow.
Otherwise, it is noted that you failed to support the claim that Christianity is intellectually impoverished.