1. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    19 Jun '10 08:31
    I'm in intereseted in the differences between an athiests idea of intelligence and a theists idea of intelligence. Anyone?
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    19 Jun '10 08:55
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I'm in intereseted in the differences between an athiests idea of intelligence and a theists idea of intelligence. Anyone?
    There is no difference. Intelligence is not about religion nor the absense thereof.
  3. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    19 Jun '10 09:27
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    There is no difference. Intelligence is not about religion nor the absense thereof.
    Ideally there shouldn't be a difference, I agree.
    But is something like 'having faith in Jesus' considered to be a form of intelligence ? (for example)
  4. Standard memberPalynka
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    19 Jun '10 09:38
    What definition of intelligence are you thinking of?
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    19 Jun '10 11:231 edit
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Ideally there shouldn't be a difference, I agree.
    But is something like 'having faith in Jesus' considered to be a form of intelligence ? (for example)
    ==================================
    I'm in intereseted in the differences between an athiests idea of intelligence and a theists idea of intelligence. Anyone?
    ===============================


    =====================================
    But is something like 'having faith in Jesus' considered to be a form of intelligence ? (for example)
    =========================================


    Then you should also ask about the difference in the Christian's view of faith and the atheist's view of faith.

    For the atheist's view of "faith in Jesus Christ" is a blind superstitious leap in the dark with no evidence, a sheer act of will power.

    But many Christian's view of faith is the response to a living yet unusual Person drawing close to one's innermost being in a way which is so intuitively real that it can no longer be ignored. A decision must be made how to relate to this Person. And it is accompanied by confirmations that if not offering absolute proof, do signal that the believer is indeed on the right track.
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    19 Jun '10 11:49
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Ideally there shouldn't be a difference, I agree.
    But is something like 'having faith in Jesus' considered to be a form of intelligence ? (for example)
    No, I don't think there is any difference.

    If so, would there be an Islamic intelligence too? Or Hindu intelligence? Or Shamanism intelligence? Makes things very complicated, don't you think?

    It is however a problem with all discussions about intelligence - what is intelligence? I've never heard of any definition that we all can agree upon. So there is the problem. What is it?
  7. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    19 Jun '10 17:22
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I'm in intereseted in the differences between an athiests idea of intelligence and a theists idea of intelligence. Anyone?
    Some similar ideas from an atheist's perspecrive are explored here:

    Thread 131083
  8. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    19 Jun '10 21:55
    Originally posted by Palynka
    What definition of intelligence are you thinking of?
    Well, as Fabian pointed out, it can get pretty hard trying to define intelligence.
    I was just thinking in terms of devotion. Is devotion intelligent? Is using your 'heart' intelligent? (And not just your 'head'😉

    Seems that these decisions are not made within the brain, as the brain acts as an intstument of intelligence,(I assuming some will disagree).
  9. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    19 Jun '10 21:59
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]==================================
    I'm in intereseted in the differences between an athiests idea of intelligence and a theists idea of intelligence. Anyone?
    ===============================


    =====================================
    But is something like 'having faith in Jesus' considered to be a form of intelligence ? (for example)
    === ...[text shortened]... not offering absolute proof, do signal that the believer is indeed on the right track.
    So having faith in JC would be an intelligent thing to do,right?

    Would you be of the persuaion that 'intellectual posturings' can hamper our relationship with the divine and therefore considered counter-intuitive/unintelligent?
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    19 Jun '10 22:561 edit
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    So having faith in JC would be an intelligent thing to do,right?

    Would you be of the persuaion that 'intellectual posturings' can hamper our relationship with the divine and therefore considered counter-intuitive/unintelligent?
    ============================
    So having faith in JC would be an intelligent thing to do,right?
    ==============================


    It was the most intelligent thing I ever did.

    =================================
    Would you be of the persuaion that 'intellectual posturings' can hamper our relationship with the divine and therefore considered counter-intuitive/unintelligent?
    =================================


    I don't know what you mean by "intellectual posturings".

    The reasoning ability in the Bible is part of the "heart" of man. And the Bible says that the heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things.

    So because of the damage upon our reasoning facility by sin nature we can be self deceived in our reasoning.

    Jesus spoke of "evil reasonings" proceeding out of the heart. One can reason why he should cheat on his wife. Another can reason why she should steal a certain object. Another can reason why he should cheat on a school test or why he should not tell his boss why he really was absent from work.

    We can consider these reasonings to be quite intelligent. And we can also consider that to reject the gracious offer of God to save us from our sins to be quite intelligent.

    Time will tell that such an "intelligent" reasoning may not have been to our best self interest.

    I don't think we can touch God with our reasoning. But I think we can reason that we SHOULD pray and use our innermost spiritual "organ" and touch God deep within our being.

    We can reason that we want to open our beings to have a relationship with Jesus. And that leads us to pray and commune with the Holy Spirit. The prayer leads to the actual touching of God. The reasoning helps or hinders us to make the decision to do so.
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    19 Jun '10 23:132 edits
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I'm in intereseted in the differences between an athiests idea of intelligence and a theists idea of intelligence. Anyone?
    Yes, indeed there is. There is a very popular, although dated, Catholic apologetic book entitled Theology is sanity. The premise behind this title, explained in the forward, is that sanity is, essentially, a state in which the mind perceives and interprets reality correctly, whereas insanity is the state in which the mind rejects or misunderstands reality. Hence, as his argument went, sanity is to think with the Church because the Church is the infallible teacher of reality. Obviously this is not intended as a valid diagnostic critedia for mental disorder and I suspect that the motivation behind the title is mostly rhetorical -- granted as well that intelligence and sanity are separate ideas but nonetheless this example shows at least some theists do pathologise atheism as a mental handicap (and undoubtedly vice versa, consider The God Delusion). To be intelligent has to mean, in some degree, to think in the same way as the person defining intelligence.

    My own anectdotal experience on this forum bears this out. Implicit in our judgement of 'intelligent' is some kind of shared ideological commitment -- and there is nothing wrong with that. When you are arguing vehemently against someone and are profoundly assured of your own view, and when another person insistently contends your point, it is quite natural and inevitable that you will explain their disagrement as some kind of mental deficiency (they lack sufficient conceptual ability; they are over zealous and blinded by dogma; they possess some vice which prevents them reading your post scrupulously.) Consequently what you deem and define as intelligent will likely depend on your own religious commitments. In the heat of the moment, everyone on this forum is likely to accuse their opponent of some mental defect.
  12. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    20 Jun '10 00:19
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]============================
    So having faith in JC would be an intelligent thing to do,right?
    ==============================


    It was the most intelligent thing I ever did.

    =================================
    Would you be of the persuaion that 'intellectual posturings' can hamper our relationship with the divine and therefore conside ...[text shortened]... touching of God. The reasoning helps or hinders us to make the decision to do so.
    "evil reasoning" procceding from the heart. Nasty stuff,eh?

    Anyway, I think if you look deep in your heart, with a patient, sane mind, your heart can be the best guide for navigating around in this world.

    I will get back to your and Conrau's post in more detail later, cheers🙂
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    20 Jun '10 00:42
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    "evil reasoning" procceding from the heart. Nasty stuff,eh?

    Anyway, I think if you look deep in your heart, with a patient, sane mind, your heart can be the best guide for navigating around in this world.

    I will get back to your and Conrau's post in more detail later, cheers🙂
    ===========================
    "evil reasoning" procceding from the heart. Nasty stuff,eh?
    ==========================


    Yea. It can be really nasty stuff.

    ==========================
    Anyway, I think if you look deep in your heart, with a patient, sane mind, your heart can be the best guide for navigating around in this world.
    ==========================


    Yes, it can help.

    The wonderful thing about the Savior Jesus is that He is also there for those who are not patient and know it, those who have mental problems, and those not in the elite of very intelligent people.

    He can reach people with depression, retardation, and those who realize their hearts are hopelessly running after idols.

    When you are a dad or mom with many children you realize that they are not all the same. Some are more intelligent then others. If you are filled with love you love them all.

    I knew a young man who was in a care accident and was in a coma. When he came out of the coma he was a believer in Jesus Christ. I think God reached him in that damaged state.

    No one, but no one can do an inside job like Jesus.
  14. Donationbbarr
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    20 Jun '10 03:57
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    Yes, indeed there is. There is a very popular, although dated, Catholic apologetic book entitled Theology is sanity. The premise behind this title, explained in the forward, is that sanity is, essentially, a state in which the mind perceives and interprets reality correctly, whereas insanity is the state in which the mind rejects or misunderstands re ...[text shortened]... f the moment, everyone on this forum is likely to accuse their opponent of some mental defect.
    That's crazy.
  15. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    20 Jun '10 06:521 edit
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    Yes, indeed there is. There is a very popular, although dated, Catholic apologetic book entitled Theology is sanity. The premise behind this title, explained in the forward, is that sanity is, essentially, a state in which the mind perceives and interprets reality correctly, whereas insanity is the state in which the mind rejects or misunderstands re f the moment, everyone on this forum is likely to accuse their opponent of some mental defect.
    "Yes, indeed there is."

    Bbarring the rest of your post ( 😉 ), would you say there is a difference in the notions of intelligence because of devotion?

    "the Church is the infallible teacher of reality." Really? How so? By contsantly refferring to one little piece of 'reality', (ie. JC's visit to Earth), and ignorring virtually all the rest of that which is real. Reality. Hmmm?
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