1. Joined
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    30 Jan '07 06:32
    I have been thinking recently that in order to have free will... there must be good and evil.

    If I goto heaven and cant sin then what can I do. Only worship god. Then im just a servent.

    What about making a mistake and learning from it. As a kid I tripped over a cup on the floor and me and my sisters laughed. It was funny then. Actualy kinda hurt... but thats life. Thats what makes life great.

    My mom was killed by a drunk driver and I have learned a ton from her death. Im a lot different now. I question things a lot more. Even Jesus. So whats wrong with that a christian friend would tell me Im wrong for doing that. But I dont think so.

    anyway free will in heaven will be gone... I think.

    Im actualy more confused then I have ever been on religion and have a hard time believe that a god of love would send ANYONE to hell.
  2. Joined
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    30 Jan '07 06:37
    Originally posted by MikeBruce
    I have been thinking recently that in order to have free will... there must be good and evil.

    If I goto heaven and cant sin then what can I do. Only worship god. Then im just a servent.

    What about making a mistake and learning from it. As a kid I tripped over a cup on the floor and me and my sisters laughed. It was funny then. Actualy kinda hurt... b ...[text shortened]... ever been on religion and have a hard time believe that a god of love would send ANYONE to hell.
    well its better than hell
  3. Jo'Burg South Africa
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    30 Jan '07 12:08
    Originally posted by MikeBruce
    I have been thinking recently that in order to have free will... there must be good and evil.

    If I goto heaven and cant sin then what can I do. Only worship god. Then im just a servent.

    What about making a mistake and learning from it. As a kid I tripped over a cup on the floor and me and my sisters laughed. It was funny then. Actualy kinda hurt... b ...[text shortened]... ever been on religion and have a hard time believe that a god of love would send ANYONE to hell.
    The big thing alot of people dont realize is that your life on earth is the learning point. The life you live on earth prepares you either for heaven or hell.

    There is nothing in it to sin, even if there is someone that doesn't believe in Jesus. Sin does not fulfil you, love does. Why not be known to be a better person than to be known as an awful person?
  4. Behind you
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    30 Jan '07 12:37
    Originally posted by MikeBruce
    I have been thinking recently that in order to have free will... there must be good and evil.

    If I goto heaven and cant sin then what can I do. Only worship god. Then im just a servent.

    What about making a mistake and learning from it. As a kid I tripped over a cup on the floor and me and my sisters laughed. It was funny then. Actualy kinda hurt... b ...[text shortened]... ever been on religion and have a hard time believe that a god of love would send ANYONE to hell.
    Your statement that you made about free will is correct. God gives us a choice in doing the right or the wrong, He even gave Adam and Eve the same choice and look what they did.
    Your statement on why would God send people to hell is incorrect. God does not send people to hell, God gave us a choice in you either do good or you do evil. If you parents told you not to steal or you will be send to your room withour supper and get a hiding and you still go and steal, you cannot blame your parents for sending you to your room. You made that choice even after you were told what the punishement would be.
    So how can you blame God fro sending people to hell. Why worry about going to heaven or hell, why worry about what heaven and hell looks like???????
    Enjoy what we have now, live according to the Bible and then you wont need to worry about heaven or hell, make your own heaven here on earth and while your at it give someone else a small piece of your heaven.
  5. Behind you
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    30 Jan '07 12:39
    Oh and sorry to hear about your mom. RIP
  6. Jo'Burg South Africa
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    30 Jan '07 12:59
    Originally posted by The Coffee Shop Guy
    Your statement that you made about free will is correct. God gives us a choice in doing the right or the wrong, He even gave Adam and Eve the same choice and look what they did.
    Your statement on why would God send people to hell is incorrect. God does not send people to hell, God gave us a choice in you either do good or you do evil. If you pa ...[text shortened]... ur own heaven here on earth and while your at it give someone else a small piece of your heaven.
    very nicely said - I agree with you.
  7. Cape Town
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    30 Jan '07 13:12
    Originally posted by MikeBruce
    I have been thinking recently that in order to have free will... there must be good and evil.

    If I goto heaven and cant sin then what can I do. Only worship god. Then im just a servent.

    What about making a mistake and learning from it. As a kid I tripped over a cup on the floor and me and my sisters laughed. It was funny then. Actualy kinda hurt... but thats life. Thats what makes life great.
    I don't believe in heaven or hell.

    However there are a number of flaws in your argument.

    1. Free will does not imply infinite choice. A restriction of choices to only non-sinful ones is not absence of free will.

    2. Your implication is that there is free will in hell but I know of no such doctrine in the various Christian Churches. They normally imply that you will be too busy burning to occupy yourself with sin.

    3. Your implication is that tripping over a cup is an example of free will (surely it was an accident not a choice?) and that it was sinful (how so?).
    Why do you think that tripping over a cup is banned in heaven? Surely it would be even more fun without the pain?

    4. Although I agree that variety and learning is a major and important part of life, I do not think that evil/sin or unnecessary suffering are essential ingredients. Hence the success of computer games/ movies etc. All the fun without the pain/death/harm to others.
  8. Cape Town
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    30 Jan '07 13:18
    Originally posted by The Coffee Shop Guy
    If you parents told you not to steal or you will be send to your room without supper and get a hiding and you still go and steal, you cannot blame your parents for sending you to your room. You made that choice even after you were told what the punishment would be.
    Not the parent analogy again! When will people get that it simply doesn't work?
    1. Parents are not all powerful beings. If I could prevent my son from stealing, I would. I would not prefer to give him the choice then punish him later.
    2. Punishment has a specific purpose - to teach a lesson and prevent repeat behavior. That is clearly not the case with hell.
    3. A parent who brings up their children as thieves is partly responsible for their actions.
    4. A parent who knowingly and unnecessarily places the temptation to steal in front of their children may be partly responsible for the child's action.
  9. Joined
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    30 Jan '07 14:00
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I don't believe in heaven or hell.

    However there are a number of flaws in your argument.

    1. Free will does not imply infinite choice. A restriction of choices to only non-sinful ones is not absence of free will.

    2. Your implication is that there is free will in hell but I know of no such doctrine in the various Christian Churches. They normally i ...[text shortened]... e the success of computer games/ movies etc. All the fun without the pain/death/harm to others.
    the cup is an example of what happens in life.

    but what you said about being more fun without pain sounds right. I actualy didnt think of that. I figured if there was no pain there will be no mistakes either.
  10. Joined
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    30 Jan '07 14:01
    When my father died he didn't go anywhere. It's down to me and everyone who loved him to carry his spirit and cherish it.

    It's easy to be confused about religion because it is basically a defunct system of understanding. We live with technology that is made possible by science, rationality and objectivity, modes of thought completely beyond and often antithetical to religion.

    Free will - by definition - is not bestowed. It takes courage and clarity of thought.

    Unfortunately when courage or reason fail, though, there is always religion...
    Like a spare bicycle that doesn't go quite so fast or stop properly.
    Like picking up a child's book you loved when you were young, to feel again a security that you once thought came into being all by itself.

    Like science, however, religion has the quality of - potentially - being harmless or genocidally dangerous, depending on what your free will uses it for.
  11. Behind you
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    30 Jan '07 14:07
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Not the parent analogy again! When will people get that it simply doesn't work?
    1. Parents are [b]not
    all powerful beings. If I could prevent my son from stealing, I would. I would not prefer to give him the choice then punish him later.
    2. Punishment has a specific purpose - to teach a lesson and prevent repeat behavior. That is clearly not the cas ...[text shortened]... mptation to steal in front of their children may be partly responsible for the child's action.[/b]
    I merely used the parent issue because God is our father in heaven.

    1) Yes parents are not all powerful beings, I agree. Firstly I would never give my son the choice to steal I merely said that he should know that there would be consequences whether positive or negative and that he has to endure these.
    2) Yes that is true I agree with your statement.
    3)Once again I agree, but I never said that you must bring your child up as a thief. When you were a child you were told what and what not to do but the final choice was always made by you. We as parent can do our best in parenting but whether our children will do as we say well.................it all depends on them.
    4) A parent can never place his child in temptation unless that parent teaches the child to steal. Temptation is all around us and we with all our wisdom and knowledge should be able to make a disscision.
  12. Joined
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    31 Jan '07 05:02
    Originally posted by twhitehead

    Free will does not imply infinite choice. A restriction of choices to only non-sinful ones is not absence of free will.
    Free will does indeed imply infinite choice within the realm of what is physically possible - and conceputally possible to the individual (some people have more imagination and creativity than others). I can't flap my wings and fly to Antarctica, but I am free to get on a plane.

    There is no such thing as sin. Your actions are what they are. If someone calls this or that action a sin then that is merely how they internalise it within their own value system.
    Killing people is generally very bad, but there can be extenuating circumstances and deciding the boundaries of what those are... is often called politics, law and ethics.

    But even if sin were an objectively real collection of actions, a restriction of choices to only non-sinful ones is indeed the absence of free will.
    Of course it is.

    And if you wanted to prove your non-sinful determination to your God, how could you do that if sin wasn't even an option to begin with?
  13. Standard memberRBHILL
    Acts 13:48
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    01 Feb '07 02:05
    Originally posted by MikeBruce
    I have been thinking recently that in order to have free will... there must be good and evil.

    If I goto heaven and cant sin then what can I do. Only worship god. Then im just a servent.

    What about making a mistake and learning from it. As a kid I tripped over a cup on the floor and me and my sisters laughed. It was funny then. Actualy kinda hurt... b ...[text shortened]... ever been on religion and have a hard time believe that a god of love would send ANYONE to hell.
    Still even if He is a God of Love for Sending Jesus to die for your sins.
    He must be a Just God and send people to hell. For example, You don't see real Jugdes say even those you robbed a bank and killed 2 people I will let you go. But truly if God gives us free will to accept or reject Christ/ Chosing life and Blessings or death and curse. Deuteronomy 30:19
    God has given us a choice to go to heaven or hell. He doesn't send people their.
  14. Joined
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    01 Feb '07 13:16
    Originally posted by RBHILL

    God has given us a choice to go to heaven or hell. He doesn't send people their.[/b]
    God creates the universe, Adam and Eve and apples, lets plague and poverty blight the lives of billions of innocents... and you are letting him off the hook for where people get sent when they die?

    Don't we tell ourselves that with great power comes great responsibility?
  15. Joined
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    01 Feb '07 18:00
    Originally posted by drakkar
    God creates the universe, Adam and Eve and apples, lets plague and poverty blight the lives of billions of innocents... and you are letting him off the hook for where people get sent when they die?

    Don't we tell ourselves that with great power comes great responsibility?
    They don't have to continue on the road to hell. They can believe Jesus Christ will pay for their sins by his death on the cross or they can choose not to believe like many unfortunatley do.

    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

    2Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    He gave us the free will to choose.
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