1. Standard memberKellyJay
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    17 Apr '16 13:28
    Is it my job to take care of myself or....
    the government
    my boss
    everyone else?
  2. Standard membervivify
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    17 Apr '16 13:33
    We're all in this together. Humans should help each other. That doesn't eliminate personal responsibility, though.
  3. Standard memberKellyJay
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    17 Apr '16 13:35
    Originally posted by vivify
    We're all in this together. Humans should help each other. That doesn't eliminate personal responsibility, though.
    Agreed, but if someone is not taking personal responsibility for themselves or anyone else,
    than what?
  4. Standard membervivify
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    17 Apr '16 13:35
    Luke 3:11New International Version (NIV)

    11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”
  5. Standard membervivify
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    17 Apr '16 13:371 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Agreed, but if someone is not taking personal responsibility for themselves or anyone else,
    than what?
    I don't know. What would Jesus do about that situation?
  6. Standard memberKellyJay
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    17 Apr '16 13:441 edit
    Originally posted by vivify
    Luke 3:11New International Version (NIV)

    11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”
    Good verse and I agree with it, but this addresses a need not a frame of mind.
  7. Standard memberDeepThought
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    17 Apr '16 13:53
    Originally posted by vivify
    Luke 3:11New International Version (NIV)

    11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”
    I assume that Kelly is referring to benefits. In the era that that was written there were no state provided benefits or other insurance. One's only hope was the charity of neighbours. So I don't think the verse is especially relevant to the modern world, at least not the West.
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
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    17 Apr '16 13:57
    Originally posted by vivify
    I don't know. What would Jesus do about that situation?
    When my internet is better I'll give you a response right now its hit and miss.
    Travelling
  9. SubscriberFMF
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    17 Apr '16 14:08
    Here's another related question that can be thrown into this discussion: is it acceptable and appropriate for a Christian employer to pay infra-human wages* simply because economic and political factors make it mathematically and legally possible?

    * An example of infra-human wages might be a person working a 60 hour week but the wages don't cover basic human needs and the worker has to either [1] work even more hours somewhere else, [2] rely on subsidies from their family, neighbourhood, or charities, [3] beg or busk, or [4] rely on government benefits.
  10. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    17 Apr '16 14:32
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Is it my job to take care of myself or....
    the government
    my boss
    everyone else?
    How would Jesus answer your question?
  11. Cape Town
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    17 Apr '16 16:06
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Is it my job to take care of myself or....
    the government
    my boss
    everyone else?
    The government is run by you and others and when it takes care of you, that is you taking care of you. It is communal rather than individual, but it is not some separate entity.
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    17 Apr '16 16:281 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    Here's another related question that can be thrown into this discussion: is it acceptable and appropriate for a Christian employer to pay infra-human wages* simply because economic and political factors make it mathematically and legally possible?

    * An example of infra-human wages might be a person working a 60 hour week but the wages don't cover basic human ...[text shortened]... their family, neighbourhood, or charities, [3] beg or busk, or [4] rely on government benefits.
    I personally have never heard of "infra-human" wages. My assumption is that you are referring to a sort of subsidy maybe? forced on a 'Christian' employer to make up the difference set by an authority like the government, state or community? (Of what it costs to live). Am I right?

    If so I would ask that question not only of Christuan employers but all, I think the over all response of a Christian employer might be the same of a non-Christian employer... None to happy about it. An accounting professor one told me, a business is in business for no other reason than to make money. Just because a Christian employer has workers does not mean they are now charged with their care, they are hired for a specific purpose just as any other employer.

    I ultimately believe the answer to your question is found here, if I have in fact understood your question.


    The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
    20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

    3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

    “He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

    7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

    “He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

    8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

    9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

    13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

    16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

    Footnotes:

    Matthew 20:2 A denarius was the usual daily wage of a day laborer.
    New International Version (NIV)
    Holy Bible, New International Version®, NIV® Copyright ©1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc.® Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

    I believe in Christian charity, absolutely. But I think your question is rooted in the problem of our day and that is entitlement. What are your thoughts?

    Edit: I would add, in the US, I believe it is public jobs that get what is cost of living raises and perhaps larger companies do this as well. Other pay increases are made through merit raises and bonuses. If you are in a union, raises are generally automatic every year regardless of anything else.
  13. Standard memberDeepThought
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    17 Apr '16 16:28
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    The government is run by you and others and when it takes care of you, that is you taking care of you. It is communal rather than individual, but it is not some separate entity.
    That a country has a representative democracy does not mean that everyone is part of the government, it just means they are able to select it. I am not part of the government and KellyJay is (I assume) not part of the US government.
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    17 Apr '16 16:43
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Is it my job to take care of myself or....
    the government
    my boss
    everyone else?
    Is this a hypothetical scenario or something you are experiencing in real life?
  15. Cape Town
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    17 Apr '16 16:52
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    That a country has a representative democracy does not mean that everyone is part of the government, it just means they are able to select it. I am not part of the government and KellyJay is (I assume) not part of the US government.
    Do you pay taxes? Do you drive on roads built by the government? In what way are you not part of it?
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