05 Jan '12 18:58>3 edits
This is an honest and OPEN QUESTION. And that means to me I am willing to be shown EITHER WAY on the issue.
I was acccused of hijacking a thread. Fine. I'll stay out of that thread and start another.
I'll start with this explanation about my one contributing post which I suppose was the "hijacking" post.
It is arguable that a doctrine of the Trinity is not essential. But how can we say that for salvation Father - Son - Holy Spirit is not essential ?
It seems that maybe your objection is about doctrine whereas my contribution concerns the reality of Father-Son-Holy Spirit.
I don't think that "doomed" or not "doomed" is the only angle from which one can approach the Bible. The "eternal purpose" of God has meaning in itself apart from saving man from "doom".
Having said that, of course the fall of man and the subsequent operation of salvation from estrangment from God because of that fall is an essential truth of the Bible.
But is it essential to that that the Father sent the Son?
But is it essential to that that the Son is the Redeemer from said "doom".
Is it essential to that that we cannot HAVE the Son or the Father apart from the Holy Spirit ?
Those are actual QUESTIONS. I will entertain any reasonable explanation that Father-Son-Holy Spirit are not to be thought as essential to the Bible's revelation. But you'll have to put forth some effort to convince me.
Okay. Who is CHRIST anyway ?
If you answer "Well Christ is the Son of God" then you are practically there already in admitting that the Father and the Son are essential to the Bible and certainly to Paul's teaching.
Am I right ?
Who then IS Christ ? I think Christ is important because He is the Son of the Father.
I do admit that there is the "milk" of the word of God. And there is the "meat" of it. I do not disagree that there are the basic and foundational matters.
Is Father - Son - Holy Spirit as God not apart of those basics? I think it is arguable.
Let's consider that if Paul wrote the book of Hebrews, (I think he did), what would he mention as the foundations of the Christian faith ?
"Therefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us be brought on to maturity, not laying again a FOUNDATION of repentance from dead works and of faith in God, of the teaching of baptisms and of the laying on of hands, of the resurrection of the dead and of eternal judgment.
And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the powers of the age to come, and yet have fallen away ... etc. etc." (Hebrews 6:1-7a)
These are words concerning the FOUNDATION (ie. ESSENTIALS) at least of the Christian Gospel. Do you agree ?
Christ is mentioned - the Son.
Faith in God is mentioned - certainly that indicates the Father.
And EXPERIENCE is mentioned. That is PARTAKING or PARTICIPATING IN in a subjective and EXPERIENCIAL manner. For this Holy Spirit is mentioned - "those ... who have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit."
Since in the FOUNDATION matters Father - Son - Holy Spirit are mentioned, maybe the Triune God, the Trinity at least as revelation IS ESSENTIAL TRUTH of the Bible.
Think maybe ?
I don't feel to disagree with this. But eventually those who are saved need something more.
Is it only for thier individual spirituality that the whole Bible is given ?
Is it only for the most elementary and individualistic rescue that the Bible is given ?
How about the climax of the whole Bible. There is a BRIDE for Christ the Son. There is a TEMPLE - a TABERNACLE for God. And there is a river of water of life as the Holy Spirit flowing throughout this COLLECTIVE - this corporate entity the New Jerusalem.
Without a vision the people run wild, says Proverbs.
Don't we also need a essential visions as to where this whole matter of God's plan and working is HEADED ? Is that essential at least eventually ?
Generally speaking, do you think coming to the grand final climax of the 66 books of the Bible one can see what to the whole revelation of God is essential and crucial ?
I was acccused of hijacking a thread. Fine. I'll stay out of that thread and start another.
I'll start with this explanation about my one contributing post which I suppose was the "hijacking" post.
Jaywill, I think you are missing the point.
An essential truth the way I interpret the meaning from the OP is one which is a matter of life and death, ie if that belief is missing from the doctrine of the believer then that believer is doomed when Christ returns to judge us.
It is arguable that a doctrine of the Trinity is not essential. But how can we say that for salvation Father - Son - Holy Spirit is not essential ?
It seems that maybe your objection is about doctrine whereas my contribution concerns the reality of Father-Son-Holy Spirit.
Is it your opinion that a believer must understand your concept of the Triune God otherwise that believer is doomed?
I don't think that "doomed" or not "doomed" is the only angle from which one can approach the Bible. The "eternal purpose" of God has meaning in itself apart from saving man from "doom".
Having said that, of course the fall of man and the subsequent operation of salvation from estrangment from God because of that fall is an essential truth of the Bible.
But is it essential to that that the Father sent the Son?
But is it essential to that that the Son is the Redeemer from said "doom".
Is it essential to that that we cannot HAVE the Son or the Father apart from the Holy Spirit ?
Those are actual QUESTIONS. I will entertain any reasonable explanation that Father-Son-Holy Spirit are not to be thought as essential to the Bible's revelation. But you'll have to put forth some effort to convince me.
To me essential truths are laid down by Christ and Paul.[/b]
Okay. Who is CHRIST anyway ?
If you answer "Well Christ is the Son of God" then you are practically there already in admitting that the Father and the Son are essential to the Bible and certainly to Paul's teaching.
Am I right ?
Who then IS Christ ? I think Christ is important because He is the Son of the Father.
And dont tell me that its complicated or difficult or complex. If it is in your mind all these things then you have lost the essence and spirit of the teachings of Christ and Paul and you are in fact lost.
I do admit that there is the "milk" of the word of God. And there is the "meat" of it. I do not disagree that there are the basic and foundational matters.
Is Father - Son - Holy Spirit as God not apart of those basics? I think it is arguable.
Let's consider that if Paul wrote the book of Hebrews, (I think he did), what would he mention as the foundations of the Christian faith ?
"Therefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us be brought on to maturity, not laying again a FOUNDATION of repentance from dead works and of faith in God, of the teaching of baptisms and of the laying on of hands, of the resurrection of the dead and of eternal judgment.
And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the powers of the age to come, and yet have fallen away ... etc. etc." (Hebrews 6:1-7a)
These are words concerning the FOUNDATION (ie. ESSENTIALS) at least of the Christian Gospel. Do you agree ?
Christ is mentioned - the Son.
Faith in God is mentioned - certainly that indicates the Father.
And EXPERIENCE is mentioned. That is PARTAKING or PARTICIPATING IN in a subjective and EXPERIENCIAL manner. For this Holy Spirit is mentioned - "those ... who have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit."
Since in the FOUNDATION matters Father - Son - Holy Spirit are mentioned, maybe the Triune God, the Trinity at least as revelation IS ESSENTIAL TRUTH of the Bible.
Think maybe ?
The teachings and gospel of Christ and Paul are both simple to understand and easy to do if we approach Christ with the right heart and mind.
I don't feel to disagree with this. But eventually those who are saved need something more.
Is it only for thier individual spirituality that the whole Bible is given ?
Is it only for the most elementary and individualistic rescue that the Bible is given ?
How about the climax of the whole Bible. There is a BRIDE for Christ the Son. There is a TEMPLE - a TABERNACLE for God. And there is a river of water of life as the Holy Spirit flowing throughout this COLLECTIVE - this corporate entity the New Jerusalem.
Without a vision the people run wild, says Proverbs.
Don't we also need a essential visions as to where this whole matter of God's plan and working is HEADED ? Is that essential at least eventually ?
Generally speaking, do you think coming to the grand final climax of the 66 books of the Bible one can see what to the whole revelation of God is essential and crucial ?