Is the Trinity an ESSENTIAL truth to the Bible ?

Originally posted by jaywill
I wrote in a post that it was an ESSENTIAL truth of Scripture that the Father is the Source and the Son is the Expression and the Holy Spirit is the Transmission of this life of God into man.

It was criticized as being extra. This is supposedly something "more" than what the Lord Jesus taught. This is something too deep and not from the teaching of Chri ...[text shortened]... this way is "something more". This revelation is the teaching of the Lord Jesus proper.

The Father is the Source.
The Son is the Expression.
The Holy Spirit will declare, will transfer, will impart and dispense all these riches expressed in the Son which were of the Father, TO the disciples.

And why does this teach the trinity?
The Father is the source which shows where the expressions originate. Remember where Jesus said "nothing originates from him but only from the Father"?
The Father or God Almighty is where all direction comes from, not Jesus the son.
Jesus is the "Word" or the mouth or spokesman of God. Do you remember the term "Word" being used to describe Jesus?.
The Holy Spirit is simply God's active force. It's the same force that he has used since the beginning of creation to make things happen. God does not use muscle as humans do. He is a spirit and has no fleshly muscles to use. But he has a spirit or force that he uses and by this force his will is accomplished.
When creating the earth he used no shovel, wheel borrow or ruler, he used his force or spirit to do this.

I have a question that I hope someone will answer about the holy spirit. Why is there no scripture that contains any conversations between God and the holy spirit, ot Jesus and the holy spirit?
It would seem if the holy spirit were the 3rd in this 3 in 1 Godhead and Jesus and God ( Jehovah ) have many many conversations and Jesus made many remarks about God and prayed to him many times, why no conversations with the holy spirit to the other 2 parts of this godhead?

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you are basing your arguments based on an english version of the bible translated by trinitarians.

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Jn20_28.html

Quoted from the link:

The overall context militates against the Trinitarian claim where Jesus describes his Father as Mary's God, as opposed to himself, and John indicates that he writes this Gospel, including the account of Jesus and Thomas, not to tell us that Jesus is himself God but instead that Jesus is God's son:


We have seen the Lord. (20:25).

I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. (20:17)

These things have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that believing you may have life in His name. (20:31).

Since John writes that we might have life believing in the name of Jesus, one should also be reminded of Jesus' words at John 17:3, "Father.... this is eternal LIFE that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent."

[/b]

It is artificial to pretend that the Apostle John did not have in mind conveying to the reader that Jesus is God and Son of God.

The very prologue of his Gospel is "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)

John's very opening statement as an introduction to the book is that the Logos was mysteriously with God and WAS GOD.

Down in verse 14 "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as the onlt Begotten of the Father), full of grace and reality."

For Christians to point out that Jesus is the Lord and God of Thomas's confession is only to agree with the prologue of John's Gospel.

To say that Jesus is the Son of God is not to say that because of this He is not God. Otherwise the Logos could be with God and NOT GOD. Because the Logos was with God and WAS GOD - the Son of God is God.

Enemies of the truth the incarnation always assume that because Christians believe that Jesus is God that mean we must believe that He is NOT a man. The truth of the matter is that Jesus is the UNION and the MINGLING of Divinity and Humanity.

It is also true that directly from the mouth of Jesus, in this Gospel of John, Jesus points to Himself as on the same level as the God Whom He also calls Father as an object of our total belief.

"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe into God, believe also into Me." (John 14:1)

" ... BELIEVE INTO GOD; BELIEVE ALSO INTO ME. "

Why ?

"BELIEVE INTO GOD ... ... BELIEVE ALSO INTO ME"

The Evangelist John certainly intends that Thomas's confession "My Lord and My God" directed to Jesus, is actuality of His disciple believing into God and believing also into Jesus - the Logos Who WAS GOD and became flesh.

When an Atheist like VoidSpirit begins to attack Christ it betrays that he harbors a fear that Jesus Christ conveys and expresses this GOD which he claims does not exist.

It is curious that he would even enter into a dispute over the exegesis of John 20:28.

I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. (20:17)

These things have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that believing you may have life in His name. (20:31).

Since John writes that we might have life believing in the name of Jesus, one should also be reminded of Jesus' words at John 17:3, "Father.... this is eternal LIFE that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent."

Make no mistake about it. For John to say that we may have the ZOE divine Life, in His name, means that we may have God Himself.

To have the ZOE Life is to have God AS life. It is to have God dispensed into us that we LIVE God, LIVE in union with God, blend with God, and mingle with God.

God then, in the New Testament, is not left as just an objective outward Person for our objective worship. God is One dispensed INTO man to be man's eternal life.

As Christ lived God, His full salvation is to bring His saved people into the same experience - to LIVE God. That is to have God LIVE in them.

"that you may have life in His name"

This is God becoming the very realm and sphere in which man lives. He lives in the realm of a Person - the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit "Person".

John confirms in his epistle that to have the Son of God is to have the divine life exactly. And it is also to have the Father:

"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:12)


Some people do not have the Son of God because they do not believe that God exists in the first place. So there is to them no God and no Son of God.

Some other people do not have the Son of God because, though they use the word "Son" in their dictionary they REALLY mean an angel of God, a created arch angel.

They say "Son of God" but in closer examination they really mean "one of the created angels of God."

" He who does not have the Son of God does not have THE LIFE"

Some HAVE a teaching. But that is all that they have. They do not have the divine life.

First John 4:15 also says "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him and he in God."

If a person does not have the assurance that God abides IN him and he IN God, perhaps he should seriously consider his dictionary. Perhaps his "Son of God" is not REALLY Son of God in the sense of the New Testament revelation.

Perhaps his lips say "Jesus, the Son of God" but his heart believes "Jesus, the archangel Michael, created by God." Perhaps because God knows that this man does not really confess Jesus as the Son of God, God does not abide in him and he neither abides in God. God to him is still far away and objective, and certainly not one whom he intimately knows as Abba Father.

The words may sound right. The belief in the heart may be rebellion.

Would trinitarians all agree that God's will and Jesus's will are always one in the same?
It would seem if they are the same being and of same mind, their wills should always be the same. But are they?

Originally posted by jaywill
Quoted from the link:

[quote] The overall context militates against the Trinitarian claim where Jesus describes his Father as Mary's God, as opposed to himself, and John indicates that he writes this Gospel, including the account of Jesus and Thomas, not to tell us that Jesus is himself God but instead that Jesus is God's son:


We have seen the Lord right. The belief in the heart may be rebellion.

John 1:1, 2:
RS reads: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” (KJ, Dy, JB, NAB use similar wording.) However, NW reads: “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in the beginning with God.”
Which translation of John 1:1, 2 agrees with the context? John 1:18 says: “No one has ever seen God.” Verse 14 clearly says that “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us . . . we have beheld his glory.” Also, verses 1, 2 say that in the beginning he was “with God.” Can one be with someone and at the same time be that person? At John 17:3, Jesus addresses the Father as “the only true God”; so, Jesus as “a god” merely reflects his Father’s divine qualities.—Heb. 1:3.
Is the rendering “a god” consistent with the rules of Greek grammar? Some reference books argue strongly that the Greek text must be translated, “The Word was God.” But not all agree. In his article “Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1,” Philip B. Harner said that such clauses as the one in John 1:1, “with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos.” He suggests: “Perhaps the clause could be translated, ‘the Word had the same nature as God.’” (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87) Thus, in this text, the fact that the word theos in its second occurrence is without the definite article (ho) and is placed before the verb in the sentence in Greek is significant. Interestingly, translators that insist on rendering John 1:1, “The Word was God,” do not hesitate to use the indefinite article (a, an) in their rendering of other passages where a singular anarthrous predicate noun occurs before the verb. Thus at John 6:70, JB and KJ both refer to Judas Iscariot as “a devil,” and at John 9:17 they describe Jesus as “a prophet.”
John J. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (New York, 1965), p. 317.
In harmony with the above, AT reads: “the Word was divine”; Mo, “the Logos was divine”; NTIV, “the word was a god.” In his German translation Ludwig Thimme expresses it in this way: “God of a sort the Word was.” Referring to the Word (who became Jesus Christ) as “a god” is consistent with the use of that term in the rest of the Scriptures. For example, at Psalm 82:1-6 human judges in Israel were referred to as “gods” (Hebrew, ’elohim Greek, theoi, at John 10:34) because they were representatives of Jehovah and were to speak his law.
See also NW appendix, 1984 Reference edition, p. 1579.

Originally posted by galveston75
The Father is the Source.
The Son is the Expression.
The Holy Spirit will declare, will transfer, will impart and dispense all these riches expressed in the Son which were of the Father, TO the disciples.

And why does this teach the trinity?
The Father is the source which shows where the expressions originate. Remember where Jesus said "nothing y times, why no conversations with the holy spirit to the other 2 parts of this godhead?

The Father is the Source.
The Son is the Expression.
The Holy Spirit will declare, will transfer, will impart and dispense all these riches expressed in the Son which were of the Father, TO the disciples.

And why does this teach the trinity?

It teaches that Father and Son and Holy Spirit are all essential to the divine operation. It teaches that what IS cannot be separated from His purpose and what His main intention is to operate.

The Father and the Son, as the Divine "WE" can only be imparted into the lovers of Christ through the Holy Spirit. It is only through the Holy Spirit that the Father and the Son eventually REACH man's inner being.

"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

The Father does not desire to remain ONLY outside, up in heaven, and objective.

The Son does not desire to remain ONLY outside, in history, on earth, objective.

The Father and the Son as the Divine and mysterious "WE" desire to enter into men and make an abode with men.

"AND MY FATHER WILL LOVE HIM ... AND WE ... WILL COME TO HIM AND MAKE AN ABODE WITH HIM."

How can the Father and the Son of the Father, as the Divine "WE" come to make an abode within the lover of Jesus ? It is only by the Holy Spirit, the Third of the Trinity. As the Holy Spirit, the Third of the Triune God, this Wonderful One REACHES man's inner being to come INTO him and make an abode.

The Father and the Son as the WE enter into man's human spirit by the Third of the Triune God - The Holy Spirit.

Now here is just ONE verse which proves that, and from the same book:

John 14:16-19 - "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may be with you forever, [Even] the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know [Him]; [but] you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you. (v.17)

I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you (v.18)

The transformation is seen from verse 17 to verse 18. The He Who abides with you and shall be in you suddenly become the I who will not leave the disciples as orphans - because He is coming to them:

" ... because HE abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you."

And when Christ, as the "I" comes to the disciples, not leaving them as orphans, WHO also comes with Him? The Father according to verse 23:

" ... My Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make an abode with him".

Jesus Christ comes into a man. He does not want to leave us as orphans. He comes through the Holy Spirit. He comes as the Divine WE the Father and the Son.

The Trinity then cannot be separated from what His plan and operation is. To dispense the Father and the Son into the believers, not leaving them as orphans, and through the Holy Spirit imparting the Divine "WE" of the Father and the Son, of the Father IN the Son ... into the lovers of Christ.

thankyou for all those who read through this. I expect Galveston did not.

Originally posted by jaywill

The Father is the Source.
The Son is the Expression.
The Holy Spirit will declare, will transfer, will impart and dispense all these riches expressed in the Son which were of the Father, TO the disciples.

And why does this teach the trinity?

It teaches that Father and Son and Holy Spirit are all essential to the divine operation ...[text shortened]... thankyou for all those who read through this. I expect Galveston did not.

I don't think the JW's really read anything we say about this all the way
through because when they see the word "Trinity" it becomes a mental
road block. In their minds you are talking about some pagan religious
belief as soon as that word is mentioned. Maybe if you could avoid that
word they might read and try to understand what you are saying as
long as they don't suspect any trinitarian doctrine in the works. They
can't be both getting amnesia so often, so that is the only reason I can
imagine that would cause them to bring up the same questions we have
answered over and over again.

Originally posted by jaywill

The Father is the Source.
The Son is the Expression.
The Holy Spirit will declare, will transfer, will impart and dispense all these riches expressed in the Son which were of the Father, TO the disciples.

And why does this teach the trinity?

It teaches that Father and Son and Holy Spirit are all essential to the divine operation ...[text shortened]... thankyou for all those who read through this. I expect Galveston did not.

I read every post here. Why would you say that? Just because I don't agree does not mean I don't read them..

Originally posted by galveston75
Would trinitarians all agree that God's will and Jesus's will are always one in the same?
It would seem if they are the same being and of same mind, their wills should always be the same. But are they?

No comments? Is anyone reading my post?

Here is another post that no one answered from another thread...

He was a perfect man physically and that is the result of Jehovah being his father. So nothing new here so I've missed nothing. But he still could have sinned if he had choose too.
So he was in no way God who cannot sin at all as you yourself stated. So explain this with the trinity....

Where's the other trinity experts? Any thoughts on this?

Originally posted by galveston75
No comments? Is anyone reading my post?

Does Jehovah God abide in you ?

"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him and he in God." (1 John 4:15)

Can you plainly confess that Jehovah God abides in you and you abide also in Jehovah God ? Not in a sentimental way, but in actuality, in reality, does Jehovah God abide IN you and you abide in Jehovah ?

Originally posted by galveston75
Would trinitarians all agree that God's will and Jesus's will are always one in the same?
It would seem if they are the same being and of same mind, their wills should always be the same. But are they?

Would trinitarians all agree that God's will and Jesus's will are always one in the same? It would seem if they are the same being and of same mind, their wills should always be the same. But are they?

1.) It is not a matter of "trinitarians" being one. It is a matter of all those human beings within whom Christ has come to dwell would be one.

In fact it is a matter of all Christians being one. And here we have Galveston playing the division card on Christians in order to deny the revelation of the Triune God.

How shall we answer him ?

2.) Jesus spoke of His people being PERFECTED into one. That means a PROCESS is involved. And His prayer was that the Father would complete the process of bringing the believers into the climax of PERFECTING into oneness.


" I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one, ..." (John 17:23a)

The Christian church universal is under the process of the Father of being "perfected into one".

Again the Apostle Paul speaks of all the Christians ARRIVING at a oneness of practicality:

"Until we all ARRIVE at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

That we may be no longer litle children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error ..." (Ephesians 4:13,14)

The Christian church is being PERFECTED into this oneness and we await to ALL ARRIVE at such a ONENESS.

So, my Christian brothers, when the Jehovah's Witness heretic plays the denomination card on us boasting "But we Watchtower students are all united and you trinitarians are not" just remember -

They are united as the sinners in the Tower of Babel were all united. It is not unto God but a unitedness in opposition to God.

We who have been born of God, who have been regenerated through the resurrection of Christ are under Christ's mighty intercession that we all may through the church age, through the millennial kingdom, and on into eternity would be PERFECTED into one, would ARRIVE at the oneness of a FULLGROWN Man at the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ.

The organic growth and building is still underway. And Christ cannot fail to build His church and the gates of Hades cannot prevail against her.

www.localchurches.org

Having explained that the Body of Christ is in the process, according to Christ's prayer, of being PERFECTED into one, and having shown that the members of Christ's body are to all ARRIVE at the oneness of the mature fullgrown man, it is important to see that there is a unity that we ALREADY have.

This unity of one experience and one indwelling Person, that we already have is only needed to be KEPT. We already have the Oneness of the Spirit:

"Being diligent to keep the ONENESS of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace: One Body and one Spirit, even as also you were called in one hope of your calling;

One Lord, one faith, one baptism; One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." (Ephesians 4:3-6)

This is a oneness that every Christian already HAS with every other Christian. We only need to be diligent to KEEP it.

While we are diligent to KEEP this onenesss of the One Spirit and the One indwelling God, the Father, etc Paul says a growth is taking place in which we eventually all must ARRIVE at a oneness in practicality.

"Until we all arrive at the onenesss of the faith ..." (v.13)

Since this is a matter of some arriving earlier and some arrive latter, this is a matter of the arriving being had by a portion of the total Body of Christ.

The letters to the seven churches in Revelation show the matter of overcomers or those who overcome the surrounding degradation. Some are called to rise to a normal victorious overcoming through Christ's grace.

The arriving at the oneness of the faith, then is a matter of more and more Christians overcoming and growing into a victorious overcoming normality. This is not meant to cause another division between those who feel they are overcoming agaisnt those who they judge as not. Humility is all around the attitude of the matter.

Some of the total Body of Christ, are overcoming division. Some are inheriting the promises. This was true in Paul's day as well as today. And the exhortation was that we should be imitators of those who are inheriting the promises, ie. those who are arriving at the oneness:

"That you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and long-suffering are inheriting the promises." (Hebrews 6:12)

We have on the earth today Christian brothers and sisters who are indeed arriving at the oneness and are inheriting the promises. They are overcoming. And we can become imitators of those who are inheriting the promises of the oneness of practicality.

Originally posted by galveston75
Here is another post that no one answered from another thread...

He was a perfect man physically and that is the result of Jehovah being his father. So nothing new here so I've missed nothing. But he still could have sinned if he had choose too.
So he was in no way God who cannot sin at all as you yourself stated. So explain this with the trinity....

Where's the other trinity experts? Any thoughts on this?

Here is another post that no one answered from another thread...

He was a perfect man physically and that is the result of Jehovah being his father. So nothing new here so I've missed nothing. But he still could have sinned if he had choose too.
So he was in no way God who cannot sin at all as you yourself stated. So explain this with the trinity....

Where's the other trinity experts? Any thoughts on this?

Once again the abject blindness in ignorance of the Jehovah Witness heretic.

By saying that Jesus Christ is God we are NOT saying that Jesus Christ was NOT a man. The polytheist who concoct a Almighty God PLUS a Mighty God polytheism assume that there can be no incarnation.

Yes, Christ the MAN could have sinned. But He did not. He is God / Man.

"And the Word became flesh ... " (John 1:14) .

The unbeliever assumes "If you say Jesus is a man then you deny that He is God" . Then he also assumes "If you say Jesus is God then you must not believe that He is a man."

We try to bring them faithfully back to the teaching of the Bible - "The Word (Who was with God and was God) BECAME FLESH and tabernacled among us."

Christ - is Godman.

The mystery of godliness is God was manifest in the flesh and all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ bodily (See Colossians 1:19, 2:9)

If there were not disbelief in the incarnation there would be no dispute over "trinity".

The attack against "trinity" is only the symptom of a deeper unbelief in the case of the Jehovah's Witness. What is underneath the attack on the Trinity is a utter rejection of the incarnation.

To them the Word is not the God with Whom the Word was (John 1:1)
To them the Word Who was God did not become flesh (John 1:14)

Probably, the very word "trinity" would be far less known had the heretics like Arius not tried to deny that Jesus was God. They tried to sneak their heretical unbelief into the church and the ancient brothers were SPOT on to detect the mischief and reject the polytheism of Arius which has its latter manifestation and revival in the Watchtower.

To be fair though, the over reaction of some caused problems of another sort.

Originally posted by jaywill
If there were not disbelief in the [b]incarnation there would be no dispute over "trinity".

The attack against "trinity" is only the symptom of a deeper unbelief in the case of the Jehovah's Witness. What is underneath the attack on the Trinity is a utter rejection of the incarnation.

To them the Word is not the God with Whom the Word ...[text shortened]... ower.

To be fair though, the over reaction of some caused problems of another sort.[/b]

ridiculous statements to make. the doctrine of the trinity didn't exist in early christianity. it was determined centuries later under roman influence. the romans in turn were already introduced to the 'trinity' concept from egyptian and hindu sources and they corrupted christianity with it.

even then there was no consensus and it was left up to a pagan emperor replete with pagan influences to make the final decisions concerning the future of christianity. after this roman corruption, christianity was lost save for a few, persecuted sects who became lost to the annals of history. perhaps some of them still remain.