-Removed-"People" and "person" come from two different latin roots... people is NOT the plural of person even though many use it this way. The word people is a collective noun and doesn't have a singular or plural form much like the word food; it comes from the latin word populum and refers to the populace as a whole. The word person is a regular noun and has a plural form, persons, that comes from the latin word persona and thus three persons in one being is like saying three personalities or personas in one being.
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Originally posted by Rajk999Its very important that we add one fact to the list
Again nothing clear about those statements. Muddled statements does not translate into clear doctrines. But I agree that Christ was like the father and all your statements mean that they were separate and distinct.
So we have the following facts:
1. Christ was great power by his Father.
2. Christ was with the Father from the beginning of mans rec ...[text shortened]... ist certainly has divine qualities.
4. Christ and God are two separate and distinct entities.
5. There is only one true God.
so Rajk -- given these five facts -- and given that you don't like the Trinity doctrine -- what alternative doctrine would you propose to explain all of the facts?
Originally posted by tomtom232Don't confuse this with Multiple Personalities.
"People" and "person" come from two different latin roots... people is NOT the plural of person even though many use it this way. The word people is a collective noun and doesn't have a singular or plural form much like the word food; it comes from the latin word populum and refers to the populace as a whole. The word person is a regular noun and has a plu ...[text shortened]... ersons in one being[/i] is like saying three personalities or personas in one being.
http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2011/10/24/was-sybil-faking-multiple-personalities/
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Originally posted by MelanerpesI think Paul answered that:
Its very important that we add one fact to the list
5. There is only one true God.
so Rajk -- given these five facts -- and given that you don't like the Trinity doctrine -- what alternative doctrine would you propose to explain all of the facts?
1 Cor 8:5-6 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Who do you think has greater authority and knowledge of Christ and God .. Paul or the RC Church 'Fathers' ?
In case you missed it ... ONE GOD AND ONE LORD JESUS.
They both are separate and distinct.
So your turn answer one question for me please .. Do you think the Apostle Paul believed in the doctrine of the Trinity?
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Originally posted by Rajk999Agreed - we shall look only at what Paul wrote - but I want to know what alternative doctrine you would offer to fit our five facts.
I think Paul answered that:
1 Cor 8:5-6 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Who do you think has greater authority an estion for me please .. Do you think the Apostle Paul believed in the doctrine of the Trinity?
Did Paul believe that there were now TWO separate Gods that we were to worship?
Did Paul believe that we are to no longer follow the commands of the "One God" of the Old Testament -- but are to instead follow the commands of a totally new God, the Lord Jesus?
Or is Paul saying that this Jesus is something LESS than God - but nevertheless, this "less-than-God-Jesus" is now to be the Lord instead of God himself?
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Originally posted by Rajk999How then do you explain this that I just quoted on the Michael the Archangel
I think Paul answered that:
1 Cor 8:5-6 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Who do you think has greater authority an estion for me please .. Do you think the Apostle Paul believed in the doctrine of the Trinity?
thread:
Again, the devil *took Him to a very high mountain and *showed Him all the kingdoms
of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You,
if You fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus *said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’” Then the devil
left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.
(Matthew 4:8-11 NASB)
And Jesus rebuked him, and the demon came out of him, and the boy was cured at once.
(Matthew 17:18 NASB)
For it is written,
“AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”
(Romans 14:11 NASB)
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is
above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Phillipians 2:9-11 NASB)
...that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart
that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person
believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting
in salvation. For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same
Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “WHOEVER
WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
(Romans 10:9-13 NASB)
P.S. "The Lord your God." It appears that since the Lord is Christ, whose
Father is His God, then everyone elses God is Christ including Satan for
Christ has the power to rebuke Satan the devil and his demons. Are there
then two God? No, there is ONE GOD. And there is ONE LORD.
Originally posted by MelanerpesWhere did Paul say that Jesus is God and we have to worship two Gods?
Agreed - we shall look only at what Paul wrote - but I want to know what alternative doctrine you would offer to fit our five facts.
Did Paul believe that there were now TWO separate Gods that we were to worship?
Did Paul believe that we are to no longer follow the commands of the "One God" of the Old Testament -- but are to instead follow the comm ...[text shortened]... - but nevertheless, this "less-than-God-Jesus" is now to be the Lord instead of God himself?
Originally posted by Rajk999okay -- so you are arguing that Paul is saying that Jesus is less-than-God.
Where did Paul say that Jesus is God and we have to worship two Gods?
So was Paul telling us that the "One God" of the Old Testament is no longer to be regarded as Lord - instead, we are to regard this "less-than-God-Jesus" as Lord?
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Originally posted by RJHindsChristians are supposed to worship God and pray to God. They are in error if they worship and pray to Christ as Christ himself said to pray as follows..
How then do you explain this that I just quoted on the Michael the Archangel
thread:
Again, the devil *took Him to a very high mountain and *showed Him all the kingdoms
of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You,
if You fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus *said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘YOU SHAL devil and his demons. Are there
then two God? No, there is ONE GOD. And there is ONE LORD.
Matt 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. ...
I cannot think of one place where Christ says to pray to him. Paul also confirmed that in his letter to Timothy :
1 Tim 2:5-6 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Clearly Christ is a mediator. There is no reference to Christ being God. Christ can have divine qualities like immortality and immense powers but that still does not make him God neither would that make him and God one and the same entity.
The Bible is clear that there are things known to God which is not known by Christ. Again they are separate and distinct entities with one purpose and one mind .. not one substance.
Originally posted by MelanerpesIt would be helpful if you quote verses to support what you say the way I do.
okay -- so you are arguing that Paul is saying that Jesus is less-than-God.
So was Paul telling us that the "One God" of the Old Testament is no longer to be regarded as Lord - instead, we are to regard this "less-than-God-Jesus" as Lord?
That practice eliminates the development of false doctrines.
Lets stick with what Paul and Christ said.
I cannot see any part of the bible that describes anyone as 'less-than'God"
Christ is described as the Son of God or you can say Lord Jesus Christ.
Lets proceed from there.
Further to that, you use 'less-than'God' in a derogatory way.
Paul says that God is the head of Christ. Nothing derogatory about that..
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Is that what you are getting at? That Christ is subject to God?
If that is the case then that would mean he cannot possibly be equal to God.
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Originally posted by Rajk999I want to know what you support. You first shot down the idea that Jesus is God or that the Father and Son are two separate Gods. You are now shooting down the idea that Jesus is less-than-God.
It would be helpful if you quote verses to support what you say the way I do.
That practice eliminates the development of false doctrines.
Lets stick with what Paul and Christ said.
I cannot see any part of the bible that describes anyone as 'less-than'God"
Christ is described as the Son of God or you can say Lord Jesus Christ.
Lets proceed from there.
You do not like the Trinity doctrine -- but you have not yet offered an alternative doctrine that explains the "five facts".
I don't really want to spend time supporting the Trinity doctrine (or any other doctrine) right now. It seems that many pages in this forum have already been devoted to that.
My main interest is just that I'm curious about what alternative doctrine you have in mind. Or are you arguing, given all the schism caused by the Trinity doctrine, that we shouldn't try to form any doctrine about this at all -- since any attempt by us humans to truly describe the nature of God is impossible?
Originally posted by MelanerpesI support what Paul preached to the Gentiles.
I want to know what you support. You first shot down the idea that Jesus is God or that the Father and Son are two separate Gods. You are now shooting down the idea that Jesus is less-than-God.
You do not like the Trinity doctrine -- but you have not yet offered an alternative doctrine that explains the "five facts".
I don't really want to spend tim ...[text shortened]... at all -- since any attempt by us humans to truly describe the nature of God is impossible.
God is the Father who sent his son Jesus Christ the Messiah to die for the sins of mankind. If we believe that his son did this for us and we follow his commandments we will have eternal life. Thats the gospel.
Why are you asking for me to formulate another doctrine? Is there something lacking in what Paul preached?
Originally posted by Rajk999the big question here is about the nature of the son Jesus Christ the Messiah
I support what Paul preached to the Gentiles.
God is the Father who sent his son Jesus Christ the Messiah to die for the sins of mankind. If we believe that his son did this for us and we follow his commandments we will have eternal life. Thats the gospel.
Why are you asking for me to formulate another doctrine? Is there something lacking in what Paul preached?
what is your position?
(a) fully divine
(b) fully human (or maybe fully an angel)
(c) semi-divine (half God and half human)
(d) fully human AND fully divine
(e) the question is impossible to answer given the limitations of human logic.