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10 Oct 15
Originally posted by twhiteheadI agree. But I think we have drifted off of the initial point. Which is fine, I'm just saying.
I disagree. There is a lot that goes into religious belief and the behaviour of the religious that has to to with human behaviour that can lead to harmful behaviour without ever there being deliberate malicious intent.
Usually the biggest downside of religion is the group dynamic that it creates. It encourages groups to form and that alone is enough to ...[text shortened]... intent that said 'let me make my religion encourage group formation so that people will suffer!'
Religion can be and generally is, a powerful motivator for either good actions or bad.
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10 Oct 15
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Originally posted by BigDoggProblemLet's think specifically on how a religion would incite wrong doing.
Dissection it may or may not be, but the distinction is important to me.
Let's think specifically on how a religion would incite wrong doing. It seems it would have to start with some sort of malicious idea placed in the followers' minds. Where did this idea come from? Likely from an influential person in the religion who had a specific malicious i ...[text shortened]... nside a building, but not carrying the craziness outside that building, would we even care much?
Why focus only on the negative aspects? Aside from you deliberately misinterpreting my previous post to you, you now want to steer our exchange down a single avenue of negativity. Hardly a balanced approach. It seems to me that have an axe and are looking for a thread to grind it in. Why don't we discuss the positive aspects as well as the negative ones?
10 Oct 15
Originally posted by divegeesterPerhaps we should back up for a minute.
[b]Let's think specifically on how a religion would incite wrong doing.
Why focus only on the negative aspects? Aside from you deliberately misinterpreting my previous post to you, you now want to steer our exchange down a single avenue of negativity. Hardly a balanced approach. It seems to me that have an axe and are looking for a thread to grind it in. Why don't we discuss the positive aspects as well as the negative ones?[/b]
Perhaps I misinterpreted your previous post, but what makes you think I did it deliberately?
Originally posted by divegeesterI used to think this way and gave religion my approval but now - the more I think
Religion can be and generally is, a powerful motivator for either good actions or bad.
about it - I think good deeds are done by good people regardless of faith (or lack of).
The converse is also true - bad stuff is done by bad people.
BUT. In the name of religion good people can be persuaded to do bad things.
I don't think religion ever made a bad person
do something good against their character
10 Oct 15
Originally posted by wolfgang59Why would you think that?
I don't think religion ever made a bad person do something good against their character
I think that it is clear that religion has significant influence on people and may even change their character from good to bad or bad to good. I also think that both genuine believers and those who pretend to believe to 'fit in' or other self interest may often do good deeds specifically because of the religion.
11 Oct 15
Originally posted by divegeesterYes I have ... after seeing the film.
Have a read of the account of John Newton; he's the man who wrote Amazing Grace. You may think differently about this afterward.
I contend that he was not intrinsically a "bad man"
and that his good works were caused by his
personal enlightenment and not his religion..
11 Oct 15
Originally posted by twhiteheadI think you are correct that some may do good deeds to "fit in" the same as
Why would you think that?
I think that it is clear that religion has significant influence on people and may even change their character from good to bad or bad to good. I also think that both genuine believers and those who pretend to believe to 'fit in' or other self interest may often do good deeds specifically because of the religion.
they may do with any club. (Wearing a blazer to the Golf Club) but I don't think
religion is ever going to turn an evil person into a righteous one.
12 Oct 15
Originally posted by wolfgang59Why do you believe that? I think you are wrong. I do know that many people have changed their character after joining or leaving a religion, or even non-religious groups, and I think it does go deeper than mere pretending to fit in.
(Wearing a blazer to the Golf Club) but I don't think
religion is ever going to turn an evil person into a righteous one.
I think Buddhism in particular recognises this and openly discusses it and puts a lot of effort into teaching people techniques to change their own character.
I am some what sceptical that we can classify people as good and evil.
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12 Oct 15
Originally posted by wolfgang59Holywood is probably not the best account of his testimony of his conversion. He was a slaver, crook and rapist. Certainly not an intrinsically good man, if there is such a thing.
Yes I have ... after seeing the film.
I contend that he was not intrinsically a "bad man"
and that his good works were caused by his
personal enlightenment and not his religion..
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12 Oct 15
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemI think this happens in religion a lot. My own experience is one where I feel I was mistreated without malicious intent.
You might have a point there. Would you provide an example of how a group could mistreat people without malicious intent?