Its perfect.

Originally posted by Dasa
There is an atheist in this forum that doesn't believe in God because he cannot understand the existence of a non-flying bird.

Because this world is an illusionary dream and not our true home, there are negative and positive aspects to this temporary material world of duality and suffering.

It there is a bird that flies, then there will be a bird that can ...[text shortened]... of our being and raise our consciousness to Krsna Consciousness and return back home to Godhead.

Dishonest.

Originally posted by Dasa

This material world is suppose to be a frustrating world of suffering and struggle, so that we may ultimately begin to explore the spirituality of our being and raise our consciousness to Krsna Consciousness and return back home to Godhead.

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Why do you think it became that way ?

In the Bible there is given a reason for the fall of man and the vanity of the world. I have a hard time ascertaining from many philosophies WHY the world you describe became as it is.

Originally posted by Dasa
Because this world is an illusionary dream and not our true home, there are negative and positive aspects to this temporary material world of duality and suffering.

.

You are redefining "Perfection" to encompass everything in the world.

Then (in a previous thread) you use the "Perfection" of this world as "proof" of a Creator.

And in other previous threads you justify the benevolence of the Creator because he/she/it has created "Perfection".

Can you not see you are going around in circles?

Originally posted by sonship
[b] This material world is suppose to be a frustrating world of suffering and struggle, so that we may ultimately begin to explore the spirituality of our being and raise our consciousness to Krsna Consciousness and return back home to Godhead.

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Why do you think it be ...[text shortened]... hard time ascertaining from many philosophies WHY the world you describe became as it is.[/b]

In Christianity they teach that this world is the first material world that God created so he could put his NEW creation (man) in it.

That is not true....................

Material man is repeating his earthly experiences over and over and over again and he is not a NEW creation........but instead a NEW INCARNATION every-time he takes another birth in this world.

He must take birth again, and incarnate back to this world if he has not developed true love for God.

No one can return to the spiritual world, without first becoming pure and surrendered to the Lord in friendship and love.

Therefore..............man will always fall, but he will ultimately rise up and return back to Godhead.(its guaranteed)

This earth is probably the (trillionth x a billionth earth) that has been created, so that the living entities that have rebelled against God can come here and try to Lord it over the material nature, with their minute independence and without God.

In order for the living entities to enjoy this world, they have been given amazing temporary material bodies constructed of earth, water,air,fire etc and with the 5 senses and with the false ego and mind and intelligence they all think that they are completely independent, and that there is no God.

Below is some information of how the cosmos is existing by way of cycles.

Because everything is ultimately eternal.............there must be cycles of creation and destruction, and we are all in the KALI YUGA at this moment in time, and this Kali Yuga is the last cycle which means we are are in the most degraded cycle of all cycles.

Sonship................Here is some info of the cycles of our cosmos.

-Maha Yugas
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The smallest cycle is called a Maha Yuga. A Maha Yuga is 4,320,000 human years. Each maha yuga is subdivided into the following four ages, whose lengths follow a ratio of 4:3:2:1:

Satya Yuga (also called Krita Yuga)
This first age is 1,728,000 human years. Also known as the Golden Age or age of Truth. The qualities of this age are: virtue reigns supreme; human stature is 21 cubits; lifespan is a lakh of years, and death occurs only when willed.
Treta Yuga
This second age is 1,296,000 human years. Also known as the Silver Age. The qualities of this age are: the climate is three quarters virtue and one quarter sin; human stature is 14 cubits; lifespan is 10,000 years.
Dvapara Yuga
This third age is 864,000 human years. Also known as the Bronze Age. The qualities of this age are: the climate is one half virtue and one half sin; lifespan is 1,000 years.
Kali Yuga
The fourth and last age is 432,000 human years. Also known as the Iron Age. This is the age in which we are presently living. The qualities of this age are: the climate is one quarter virtue and three quarters sin; human stature is 3.5 cubits; lifespan is 100 or 120 years.
Toward the end of a Kali Yuga, various calamities cause a good deal of destruction. Baba Hari Dass states that creation disappears at the end of a Maha Yuga and remains in seed form inside Brahma.

Brahma Days (Kalpas)

A kalpa is a single daytime period in the life of Brahma, the creator god. Two kalpas are a day and a night of Brahma.

Each kalpa is composed of 1,000 maha yugas. A kalpa is thus equal to 4.32 billion human years.

At the end of Brahma's daytime period, the Three Worlds (Bhuloka, Bhuvarloka, Swarloka) and the seven underworlds (of the nagas) are temporarily dissolved (pralaya); that is, the same folks can be reincarnated when the next day of Brahma begins.

The Vishnu Purana states that at the end of the daytime period of Brahma, a dreadful drought occurs that lasts 100 years, and all the waters are dried up. The sun changes into seven suns, and the three worlds (Bhurloka or Earth, Bhuvarloka or the lowest heaven, and Svarloka or the next higher heaven) and the underworlds are burned bare of life. The inhabitants of Bhuvarloka and Svarkloka flee to the next higher heaven, Maharloka, to escape the heat; and then to the next higher heaven, Janaloka.

Then mighty clouds form and the three worlds are completely flooded with water. The lord Vishnu reposes on the waters in meditative rest for another whole kalpa (4.32 billion years) before renewing the creation.

The destruction that takes place at the end of a daytime of Brahma is referred to as naimittika, which is incidental or occasional. The characteristic of this destruction is that the three worlds continue to exist but are made uninhabitable. The souls of individuals also continue to exist to be reincarnated in the next daytime of Brahma.

Brahma Years

A year of Brahma is composed of 360 day/night cycles of Brahma, or 720 kalpas, or 8.64 billion human years.

Brahma Life

The lifespan of Brahma is 100 Brahma years, or 72,000 kalpas, or 311.04 trillion human years.

At the end of the life of Brahma, all worlds are completely dissolved (mahapralaya).

Manvantaras

Another cycle that overlaps the others is that of manvantaras. Each kalpa is reigned over by a succession of 14 Manus, and the reign of each Manu is called a manvantara. A single manvantara is approximately 71 maha yugas.

Coomaraswamy states: "Each Manvantara is followed by a Deluge, which destroys the existings continents and swallows up all living beings, except the few who are preserved for the repeopling of the earth."

Our Position in History

We are located in the fifty-first Brahma year of the life of our Brahma.

Within that Brahma year, we are in the first Brahma day, called the Varaha kalpa.

Within that Brahma day, we are in the seventh manvantara, and in the 28th maha yuga of that manvantara. This would place us at about the 454th maha yuga of the 1,000 maha yugas that comprise this day of Brahma.

Within this maha yuga, we are in Kali Yuga. The 5100th year of Kali Yuga will correspond to the year 2,000 A.D. That means that we are fairly early in Kali Yuga and this age will continue more than 426,000 more years.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
You are redefining "Perfection" to encompass everything in the world.

Then (in a previous thread) you use the "Perfection" of this world as "proof" of a Creator.

And in other previous threads you justify the benevolence of the Creator because he/she/it has created "Perfection".

Can you not see you are going around in circles?

First of all (this is not the Super Perfect Spiritual world), but the relatively perfect material world of suffering and struggle and old age and disease and finally death.

Perfection in this world is relative to everything else, but ultimately everything is perfect because it exists the way it is suppose to exist.............THEREFORE everything in this world IS perfect.

A rock you find on the beach is absolutely perfect because it is existing in time and space exactly the way it is suppose to exist.

The ingrown toe-nail that is swelling and giving you pain, IS ABSOLUTELY PERFECT........as far as ingrown toenails go.

I think that you are trying to say, that if there is something in this world that disagrees with you....(then it must be imperfect)

That small rock was probably a big rock that got spat out of a volcano, and then it was weathered by the wind and rain for thousands of years and finally it is at your feet on the beach.( and it is a perfect and lovely little rock)...........as far as little rocks go.

Originally posted by Dasa
In Christianity they teach that this world is the first material world that God created so he could put his NEW creation (man) in it.

That is not true....................

Material man is repeating his earthly experiences over and over and over again and he is not a NEW creation........but instead a NEW INCARNATION every-time he takes another birth in this ...[text shortened]... s that we are fairly early in Kali Yuga and this age will continue more than 426,000 more years.

What about Hell or a place of punishment for the soul after death of the body?

Originally posted by RJHinds
What about Hell or a place of punishment for the soul after death of the body?

Endless rebirths into a world of RJHindses and Dasas has to be worse than any christian notion of hellfire out there, surely? This vedic crap is almost as cleverly devised as the abrahamic religions, it seems.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Dishonest.

I'd like to hear more about your take on the Vedas.

Were they included in your studies? Have you had enough exposure to them to develop an opinion?

Originally posted by Suzianne
I'd like to hear more about your take on the Vedas.

Were they included in your studies? Have you had enough exposure to them to develop an opinion?

No, only really studied the Vedas on a superficial level. In fact i think i only did one module on Hinduism in my final year. (Admitting that of course will make Dasa's day). Christianity and Judaism (unsurprisingly) formed the major bulk of my studies.

Labeling Dasa and his religion as 'dishonest' in purely in response (and exasperation) of him repeatedly calling anybody who disagrees with him 'dishonest.'

I have no objection to him calling me ignorant or wrong, but calling my genuine view of things dishonest is basically calling me a liar, which i do object to.

The Ghost is giving the fellow a taste of his own medicine. I hope he finds it bitter. (If not in this life, then perhaps the next).

Originally posted by Dasa
Perfection in this world is relative to everything else, but ultimately everything is perfect because it exists the way it is suppose to exist.............THEREFORE everything in this world IS perfect.

If everything is PERFECT what is it PERFECT relative to?

Originally posted by RJHinds
What about Hell or a place of punishment for the soul after death of the body?

Yes there is hell.

But people are not sent there for eternity.

Once again the soul is in a spiritual sleep, whilst his material ethereal body is experiencing an illusionary hell whilst he is made aware of his past sins.

After he has had his hellish learning experience, he will be sent to his next incarnation to take birth according to his specific karma.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
If everything is PERFECT what is it PERFECT [b]relative to?[/b]

Relative perfection is not the same as absolute perfection.

This material world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual world, where everything here decays and disappears in contrast to everything in the spiritual world being eternal and not decaying and not disappearing.

The decaying and disappearing is simply the material energy changing status.(from manifest to un-manifest)

This process of the manifest becoming un-manifest is not a mistake or an imperfection, but instead a perfect process that happens by design.

Remember this world is an "illusionary dream world" dreamt up by us (the soul) and because it is constructed of earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego / it looks and feels the way it is and that's that.

Why are we here in this temporary world of suffering only to die at the end?

We came to this material world (our false home) because we wanted to be independent from God, and therefore God has no choice but to grant our desire.

But in granting our desire, God knows that he cannot simply send his "Beloved Sons" off to another existence to live there for eternity without him, for he already knows full well that we would ultimately desire to come (back to Godhead) our true and real eternal home of joy and bliss and contentment.

Therefore: the perfection of this world is relative to its usefulness to serve its purpose.

Originally posted by C Hess
Endless rebirths into a world of RJHindses and Dasas has to be worse than any christian notion of hellfire out there, surely? This vedic crap is almost as cleverly devised as the abrahamic religions, it seems.

You foolish man.....

There is no endless re-births at all, but any person can return back to Godhead at once (if he re-kindles his lost love for God)