James 2:14-26

1.) How is "Faith without works is dead" true in the James epistle?
2.) Does James contradict Paul in Romans and/or Galatians - Justification by faith?

This is continued from the thread "What do you have to [lose]?

Why I would defend Yes for #1 and No for #2.

@sonship said
Why I would defend Yes for #1 and No for #2.

Because you have no life.

What is the profit, my brothers, If anyone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (v.14)

If a brother or sister is without clothing and lacks daily food, (v.15)

And anyone of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, yet you do not give them the necessities of the body, what is the profit? (v.16)

I am here to learn too from others as well as state some positions of my own.

Here we can see "What is the profit ...?" question is posed is faith is without works. Verse 14 - What is the profit, ... if anyone says he has faith but does not have works?

And notice verse 16 is concerned about "profit" mostly in a horizontal way in the community of believers, more so IMO then vertically before God.

" ... be warmed and be filled, YET you do not give them the necessities of the body, what is the profit?"

Profit to the believer is wrapped up here with profit mainly in a horizontal manner within the Christian community (and we may say probably towards the observing outside society).

The PROFIT is lost and the believer fails to be "saved," in verse 14.

But in what sense is "saved" used by James?

What is the profit, my brothers, if anyone says he has faith but does not have works?

Can that faith save him?

I think the rhetorical question is answered in the negative. No, that faith cannot save him.

But ... I think James argues that the profit is had (ie. the believer is saved) when he behaves with practical assistance to the needy brother or sister in verse 16.

"If a brother or sister is without clothing and lacks food, (v.15)

And any one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, yet you do not give them the necessities of the body, what is the profit?" (v.16)

Ie. Your brother is in practical need and you had opportunity to help him. You neglected to. Brother, you still need to be saved. Your faith was dead as far as practical outflow of love to the needy saint went. Why did you remain unmoved? Are you still stingy? Are you still afraid to sacrifice some? Do you still need to be SAVED from these anxieties and weaknesses?

@BigDoggProblem

Because you have no life.

So says the Court Jester.

Well I'm certainly not happy to hear from the Court Jester that I have no life.
But going on some more here with the focus on James -

" ... what is the profit?

So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself. (v.17)

In the sense I think I understand James to mean, I have to agree - that impractical faith resulting in no outflow of expression of practical charity, is of no profit to the believer and is dead.

Next, to James what is not "dead" or of no profit is the works that can justify the believer in a horizontal way mainly, before each other and before the observing world.

But someone will say, You have have, and I have works; show me ur faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (v.18)

Ie. Justify before me that you have faith. Try it without an expression of practical charity. No, practical expression of love? How can we justify that you really have faith?

Observe how I live. Opportunities arrive in which you can justify my faith because I seized some of those opportunities to be practical. Works issuing out of my life justifies me that faith really lives in me.

I think so far this justification, this profit secured, this saving obtained is primarily horizontal before other human beings more so, then before God vertically.

This is arguable perhaps. I am willing to hear if someone disagrees significantly.

I am doing this as I go along. When I begin to write things I have more so learned from the study of James by others, I will signal that somewhat of a shift has been made.

Hearing James on in verse 19:

You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe and shudder. (v.19)

James is equating "faith" here with "believe that God is one".

Big deal that you say you believe that "God is one" [ie. SAY you have faith].

The demonic spirits who are all doomed to perish, and know it, they too have THAT kind of faith. They believe. They surely are NOT [edited] justified before God or man because of it!

James is building up his argument that "faith without works is dead"
Since the demons are terrified of the God who is to judge them, they shudder because of THEIR kind of faith; because of their kind of belief in God being one.

The first example James uses is evil spirits.
From this he goes on the Abraham and then to Rehab the harlot to further build his case that faith without works is dead.

@sonship said

What is the profit, my brothers, If anyone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? (v.14)

If a brother or sister is without clothing and lacks daily food, (v.15)

And anyone of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, yet you do not give them the necessities of the body, what is the profit? (v.16)

I am he ...[text shortened]... nner within the Christian community (and we may say probably towards the observing outside society).

I am here to learn too from others...

Matthew 13
. 13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14“In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

@ThinkOfOne

Matthew 13
. 13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14“In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

Thankyou ToO.

Now you and I have the problem of me not being able to pinpoint when you find the Bible divinely authoritative and when you find it not divinely authoritative.

So you raise your voice here and show me Jesus in Matthew quoting the prophet Isaiah. But if I try to say "It is also written ..." you don't care.

I think you are an atheist. And I think as much as I would welcome a robust exchange on James 2:14-26 it is like chasing a mirage with you.

How can a Christian such as I possibly take you seriously or expect some attempt for you to take me seriously? You won't commit to God being period.

If no God, it matters not what Matthew wrote, it matters not what Jesus spoke, it matters not what Isaiah the prophet spoke or what James says which we might compare to what Paul wrote.

Like Paul wrote - If there is no resurrection then Christ is not raised and just eat, drink, have some fun because it is vanity of vanities. Tomorrow we die and rot. It matters not.

If no God, or you cannot believe enough to confess God is, I don't think there is any point in discussion of the book's contents - the Bible.

@thinkofone said
I am here to learn too from others...

Matthew 13
. 13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14“In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEIN ...[text shortened]... EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

Trying to make a point?

@secondson said
Trying to make a point?

Unable to see, hear or UNDERSTAND the point?

@secondson said
Trying to make a point?

The point was made by Jesus in v 11...

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given (Matthew 13:11 KJV)

They mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven is the point. . There are many Christians who God has not allowed to understand the mysteries of the Kingdom. People like you, sonship and several others who spend their life condemning the keeping of the commandments of Christ fall into this category.

@thinkofone said
Unable to see, hear or UNDERSTAND the point?

The passage I understand. It's you that's unclear.

@rajk999 said
The point was made by Jesus in v 11...

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given (Matthew 13:11 KJV)

They mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven is the point. . There are many Christians who God has not allowed to understand the mysteries of the Kingdom. People lik ...[text shortened]... s who spend their life condemning the keeping of the commandments of Christ fall into this category.

So according to you Jesus taught that there are classes of Christians. Those that know the mysteries of the kingdom, like you, and those that don't, like me, sonship and others.

And you believe God hides the truth, even though it is written out in scripture.

And you think that I, sonship and others condemn the keeping of the commandments of Christ, even though none of us has ever said that.

And you categorize Christians. You've learned well from Satan.

@secondson said
So according to you Jesus taught that there are classes of Christians. Those that know the mysteries of the kingdom, like you, and those that don't, like me, sonship and others.

And you believe God hides the truth, even though it is written out in scripture.

And you think that I, sonship and others condemn the keeping of the commandments of Christ, even though none of us has ever said that.

And you categorize Christians. You've learned well from Satan.

So according to you Jesus taught that there are classes of Christians.

There are Christians.

And there are those who see, hear and understand the words spoken by Jesus during His ministry.

Never the twain shall meet.