26 Oct 19
1 edit
@sonship saidThere is no contradiction. Your false interpretation leads you into long self contradicting analyses and discussions trying to justify contradictions which do not exist.
Question then:
Is it POSSIBLE that James was speaking to an audience which was still AWAITING to be justified before God to have eternal life ?
Could he be writing "faith without works is dead" because some of his audience had NOT, I say NOT been recipients of eternal life YET?
Ie. He is informing them that they are spiritually still without e ...[text shortened]... on seems not in terms of them having been brought forth.
But it a shortage of Christian perfection.
Jesus in his early ministry said faith without works is dead
Paul said faith without works is dead
Peter said faith without works is dead
John said faith without works is dead
James said faith without works is dead
Jude said faith without works is dead
Jesus in Revelation said faith without works is dead.
They all said it clearly but in different words. You are just blinded by your one verse nonsense doctrine of faith only and nothing else.
Entry into the Kingdom of God are for those who keep the commandments.
Faith only and nothing else fools and goats [so Jesus called them], will be cast out.
Keep preaching your nonsense. You will be cast out as well.
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26 Oct 19
1 edit
There is no contradiction. Your false interpretation leads you into long self contradicting analyses and discussions trying to justify contradictions which do not exist.
Can you show me what you mean that I said there is somewhere a contradiction?
I thought my OP states as the second major point - NO to there being a contradiction between ie. James and [Romans / Galatians]
1.) How is "Faith without works is dead" true in the James epistle?
2.) Does James contradict Paul in Romans and/or Galatians - Justification by faith?
...
Why I would defend Yes for #1 and No for #2.
Did you see that?
" ... I would defend Yes for #1 and No for #2.
There is no question mark. My discussion will show WHY ...
" ... I would defend Yes for #1 and No for #2.
So for clarification what do you mean to contest to me that "THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION"?
Haven't I agreed that there is no contradiction (given how to understand James there] ?
Jesus in his early ministry said faith without works is dead
Paul said faith without works is dead
Peter said faith without works is dead
John said faith without works is dead
James said faith without works is dead
Jude said faith without works is dead
Jesus in Revelation said faith without works is dead.
For simplicity's sake the only book that has the SPECIFIC WORDS - "faith without works is dead" is James.
Word for word, I only find that phrase in the book of James.
"But others said the same thing!" is something we may discuss latter.
Can we stick to the PRECISE WORDS of the phrase "faith without works is dead"?
James 2:26 - "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."
This LITERALLY I can only locate in James 2:26.
"But everybody ELSE said it too!" I don't think is LITERALLY true.
They all said it clearly but in different words. You are just blinded by your one verse nonsense doctrine of faith only and nothing else.
I am dealing firstly with the ONLY literal phraseology of James 26
The personal comment you make below this I will leave out of my response as I intend here not to get personal.
Rather than generate heat I hope to concentrate on generating light.
26 Oct 19
@rajk999 saidTheir doctrine is that they automatically produce good fruit once they profess faith with their mouth.
Their doctrine is that they automatically produce good fruit once they profess faith with their mouth. Nobody else can do good. Only Christians are good.
Which is why I quoted Luke 6. They believe that they can continue to sin and produce "good fruit". They completely ignore the following:
"For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit."
I've yet to see anyone make even a half-way reasonable case that sin can ever be considered anything but "bad fruit". Yet they believe themselves "good trees" even though they produce "bad fruit".
They don't understand what Jesus is saying. They have neither the eyes to see nor the ears to hear.
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26 Oct 19
2 edits
Maybe Rajk999 will clarify to me what he means.
Now something fascinating. Both Paul and James make reference to Genesis 15:6.
And he [Abram] believed Jehovah, and He accounted it to him as righteousness."
James refers to it in James 2:23a
"And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, And Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness ... "
Paul refers to the same verse twice, once in Romans 4:3 and once in Galatians 3:6
Romans 4:3 - "For what does the Scripture say? And Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness ... "
Galatians 3:6 - "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness."
Well come back to this.
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26 Oct 19
Which is why I quoted Luke 6. They believe that they can continue to sin and produce "good fruit". They completely ignore the following:
"For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit."
I've yet to see anyone make even a half-way reasonable case that sin can ever be considered anything but "bad fruit". Yet they believe themselves "good trees" even though they produce "bad fruit".
I have dealt with this argument of yours before by discussing that aspect of salvation called transformation.
You best see this in the epistles.
But I would not deny I could find it also in the four Gospels somewhere.
So INSTANTANEOUS switching of a man from a bad tree to a good tree in an instant, is not really what the New Testament teaches.
Being born again is instantaneous.
And Rapture is in the twinkling of an eye, instantaneous.
The process of transformation and subjective sanctification is NOT instantaneous, in the twinkling of an eye - only taking one second.
I would say that you are over exploiting Jesus Christ's word there to convey that ...
One period of time the BAD tree bore nothing but BAD FRUIT. And in an instant -
BINGO !!! One day suddenly the GOOD tree bears nothing but GOOD FRUIT.
26 Oct 19
@sonship saidThe bible says
Maybe Rajk999 will clarify to me what he means.
Now something fascinating. Both Paul and James make reference to Genesis 15:6.
And he [Abram] believed Jehovah, and He accounted it to him as righteousness."
James refers to it in James 2:23a
"And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, And Abraham believed Go ...[text shortened]... braham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness."
Well come back to this.
- Abraham believed God.
- Abraham was OBEDIENT to God
- Abraham will be in the Kingdom of God
You say your faith / belief is all that is required
No need to be obedient to the commandments of Christ
Your doctrine is the doctrine of damnation
26 Oct 19
@sonship saidTrying to separate and isolate what James said in order to twist it is deceitful. All the other bible writers said the same thing.
@Rajk999
There is no contradiction. Your false interpretation leads you into long self contradicting analyses and discussions trying to justify contradictions which do not exist.
Can you show me what you mean that I said there is somewhere a contradiction?
I thought my OP states as the second major point - NO to there being a contradiction between i ...[text shortened]... nd here not to get personal.
Rather than generate heat I hope to concentrate on generating light.
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26 Oct 19
2 edits
@Rajk999
Just out of curiosity.
You and ThinkOfOne seem to be in agreement about something important.
Is your agreement with ThinkOfOne, and his agreement with you extend to the existence of God ?
Can you get ThinkOfOne to clearly write that he believes that God exists?
Since you and he are apparently on the same page of my misunderstanding or un-understanding of the Bible, are you also on the same page with him about God's existence ?
26 Oct 19
1 edit
@thinkofone saidYou and Rajk are outright lying. None of your accusations can be supported by anything that Christians posting in this forum have said.
Their doctrine is that they automatically produce good fruit once they profess faith with their mouth.
Which is why I quoted Luke 6. They believe that they can continue to sin and produce "good fruit". They completely ignore the following:
"For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit." ...[text shortened]...
They don't understand what Jesus is saying. They have neither the eyes to see nor the ears to hear.
Trolls in wolves clothing is all the two of you are.
26 Oct 19
@sonship saidDo you know how you can tell the difference between sheep, and wolves in sheep's clothing?
@Rajk999
Just out of curiosity.
You and ThinkOfOne seem to be in agreement about something important.
Is your agreement with ThinkOfOne, and his agreement with you extend to the existence of God ?
Can you get ThinkOfOne to clearly write that he believes that God exists?
Since you and he are apparently on the same page of my misunderstanding or un-understanding of the Bible, are you also on the same page with him about God's existence ?
Sheep eat grass, but wolves eat sheep.
Neither ToO or Rajk are believers. They're only here to entertain themselves by trolling Christians.
26 Oct 19
2 edits
@sonship saidAs I'm sure I've explained to you before, transformation is fine in and of itself.
@ThinkOfOne
[quote] Which is why I quoted Luke 6. They believe that they can continue to sin and produce "good fruit". They completely ignore the following:
"For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit."
I've yet to see anyone make even a half-way reasonable case that sin can ever be consider ...[text shortened]... n an instant -
BINGO !!! One day suddenly the GOOD tree bears nothing but GOOD FRUIT.
However, as I'm also sure I've explained before, until an individual has fully transformed and produces "good fruit" and "good fruit" only, they belong in the group described thus...:
19“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
20“The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
22“And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
...and only after an individual has fully transformed and produces "good fruit" and "good fruit" only, do they belong in the group described thus:
23“And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”
26 Oct 19
@sonship saidDo you really think Im here to satisfy your stupid curiosity about irrelevant matters?
@Rajk999
Just out of curiosity.
You and ThinkOfOne seem to be in agreement about something important.
Is your agreement with ThinkOfOne, and his agreement with you extend to the existence of God ?
Can you get ThinkOfOne to clearly write that he believes that God exists?
Since you and he are apparently on the same page of my misunderstanding or un-understanding of the Bible, are you also on the same page with him about God's existence ?
26 Oct 19
2 edits
@secondson saidSays the foolish man who built his house on the sands of the church and not on the rock of the teachings of Christ.
Do you know how you can tell the difference between sheep, and wolves in sheep's clothing?
Sheep eat grass, but wolves eat sheep.
Neither ToO or Rajk are believers. They're only here to entertain themselves by trolling Christians.
27 Oct 19
2 edits
@rajk999 saidWhen unable to refute the words of Jesus, they almost invariably resort to tossing out ad homs, tossing out red herrings, tossing out straw men, asking irrelevant questions, etc.
Says the foolish man who built his house on the sands of the church and not on the rock of the teachings of Christ.
It's their only defense. It's not rational. It's not reasonable. But it's their only defense. It IS an act of desperation.
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27 Oct 19
2 edits
...and only after an individual has fully transformed and produces "good fruit" and "good fruit" only, do they belong in the group described thus:
I ask you again then. NAME a disciple in the New Testament who was in this "fully transformed" and fruit producing state ?
If you cannot name ANYONE I will accept as an answer that you cannot name any disciple SPECIFICALLY. Don't leave it ignored in silence or so general as to effectively evade the question.
You have many names from the Gospels, Acts and the Epistles to name SPECIFICALLY.