Jesus' decent into Hell

Originally posted by Crita
I guess you could say He created you knowing that you would reject Him but He is not the one that made you reject Him. You did that on your own.

That second paragraph makes no sense. Just because God knows what He or I or you or anybody is going to do doesn't mean that He is controlling that choice. Ok, so He does know about everything that He will ever do, ...[text shortened]... e all those choices (from His perspective) in His omnipotence.

If that makes any sense.....

So, He creates the entire universe and everything in it, with full knowledge of everything that'd ever happen, yet he didn't cause it?


What a load.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
So, He creates the entire universe and everything in it, with full knowledge of everything that'd ever happen, yet he didn't cause it?


What a load.

Why is that a load? God does not force you against your will.

Originally posted by josephw
Why is that a load? God does not force you against your will.

The point is that you HAVE NO FREE WILL. It's logically impossible if God is omniscient and created the world.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
The point is that you HAVE NO FREE WILL. It's logically impossible if God is omniscient and created the world.

You HAVE FREE WILL. What do you mean," It's logically impossible if God is omniscient and created the world"? That BECAUSE he created the world you don't have free will? I'm not sure what you mean!

Originally posted by josephw
You HAVE FREE WILL. What do you mean," It's logically impossible if God is omniscient and created the world"? That BECAUSE he created the world you don't have free will? I'm not sure what you mean!

Look. God created the world, right?

And he's omnipotent, and could have created it anyway he wanted.

He specifically created it this way, and no other.

He's omniscient, right.

He created the world just this way, and no other, with me in it.

He created me, knowing he'd have to send me to hell.

There is no choice that I can possibly make which will prove God wrong.

God deigned for me to go to hell.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Look. God created the world, right?

And he's omnipotent, and could have created it anyway he wanted.

He specifically created it this way, and no other.

He's omniscient, right.

He created the world just this way, and no other, with me in it.

He created me, knowing he'd have to send me to hell.

There is no choice that I can possibly make which will prove God wrong.

God deigned for me to go to hell.

God did not design for you to go to hell. That is a lie. I'm not saying that you are liying. I'm saying you have a choice.

God has a plan. He is offering to you and anyone and everyone the free gift of eternal life. It's FREE to everyone no matter what they have done. No matter what. That is God's design for you. There is absolutly no doubt about it. It is what the bible teaches foremost. It cannot be denied that that is what God's design is.

God gives us hope. Not the kind of hope that says MAYBE. But a SURE hope. There is a verse somewhere that has the phrase in it " Christ which is our hope". It's a sure thing. Reach out and take it. It's free. Free choice. Free will.

I'm going to quit now because it sounds like preaching. I ain't no preacher. I probably won't be back today. I got other things to do.

Originally posted by Crita
Might? What if you did - some friend you would be. Not even friend enough to respect their wishes.

God really does want to help us, but we have to ask Him. He won't just barge in and take over because He knows what is best for us.

If I did, I would be a great friend, because I would, in fact, know what was best for that person. However, I do not, and therefore should respect the other person's wishes. This does not apply to an omnipotent, omniscient being however.

Originally posted by josephw
God did not design for you to go to hell. That is a lie. I'm not saying that you are liying. I'm saying you have a choice.

God has a plan. He is offering to you and anyone and everyone the free gift of eternal life. It's FREE to everyone no matter what they have done. No matter what. That is God's design for you. There is absolutly no doubt about it. It i ...[text shortened]... hing. I ain't no preacher. I probably won't be back today. I got other things to do.

Nope. The entire thing is illogical.

You are now merely resorting to the standard "fingers in ears" response. If you can't answer me, with a logical answer, how an omnipotent omniscient God can co-exist with this concept of free will then perhaps you need to rethink your faith.

You seem to assume that God created the world as we see it today which is not true. This is merely a corrupted version of His original creation.

What if God has pre-destined you to go to Heaven?

Originally posted by Crita
What if God has pre-destined you to go to Heaven?

Then the argument is exactly the same for all the people who are pre-destined to go to Hell. It matters not one bit the consequences of my life.

Originally posted by Crita
You seem to assume that God created the world as we see it today which is not true. This is merely a corrupted version of His original creation.

Secret-decoder ring time, I think.

Irrespective if what he created, he knew this'd come to pass, and being omnipotent, and not avoiding it, condoned and in fact created it.

Ok, you win.

Originally posted by Crita
Ok, you win.

It's not about winning or losing. I've only won if you start to think about "why" you have faith, and how rational it is. If you cannot logically justify it then I have lost.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
It's not about winning or losing. I've only won if you start to think about "why" you have faith, and how rational it is. If you cannot logically justify it then I have lost.

Well, you won a long time ago. I've never just accepted anything on face value or blindly. As far as I am concerned, I am comfortable with my beliefs. There are still a lot of things I don't understand and there are even more things that I can't explain but I know that I know that I know that God exists as much as I can see my hand in front of my face.

So, you seem to have won, however it seems I have lost. My goal was to get you to consider things from a different angle, rather than sticking to your guns until there is irrefutable proof in front of you. Rather than 'prove to me that God exists' I wanted you to ask 'what if God does exist?'

Anyway, thanks for the conversation. Kept me busy while I was waiting for people to move.

EDIT -> Logic will never prove anything supernatural. That's why it's called 'super'natural.