1. Joined
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    23 Nov '16 01:10
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    We can create a cure for something, but unless it is applied it will not work.
    Jesus paid for all sins, but unless we go to Him, His death will be meaningless for our
    forgiveness. Which is why He is the only worthy part of this whole process, not us!
    (Isaiah 43:11) I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
    Actually Jehovah is the most worthy part of the process as He provided
    His only begotten Son Christ Jesus as our Savior.
  2. Standard memberKellyJay
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    23 Nov '16 06:06
    Originally posted by roigam
    (Isaiah 43:11) I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
    Actually Jehovah is the most worthy part of the process as He provided
    His only begotten Son Christ Jesus as our Savior.
    What translation are you using please?
  3. SubscriberSuzianne
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    23 Nov '16 09:29
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    What translation are you using please?
    He's using the NWT, what else?
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    23 Nov '16 10:49
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    He's using the NWT, what else?
    Perhaps some archaic version written in the middle ages by a group of men ripping off the Latin Vulgate with no more than a handful of Greek manuscripts to their name, what was that called again? oh yeah, the King James version, the same King James that burnt ten women under the auspices that they were witches because he thought they induced a storm which almost prevented him for reaching his destination!
  5. Standard memberKellyJay
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    23 Nov '16 11:431 edit
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    He's using the NWT, what else?
    I thought it had to be something like that, I only checked a few translations and none of
    them translated that verse the same way. After reviewing a few others there are a handful
    that agree.
  6. R
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    23 Nov '16 12:412 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    The OP mentions heaven and the kingdom of heaven in an interchangeable way:

    Everyone is going to heaven, at least according to some libtards.

    For those who actually believe this lie I ask....

    When Jesus said that not all who call to Jesus lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, was Jesus just being a liar?


    My question to you was essentially were you also using heaven and the kingdom of heaven as interchangeable terms.

    The OP referred to "the kingdom of heaven", my post referred to "the kingdom of heaven" and in the passage I cited, Jesus referred to "the kingdom of heaven".

    So how exactly does what you just wrote logically follow?:
    [quote]When you say "Of course not" you are referring to what was written about entering into heaven.


    You have clarified it now. And it was quite logical for me to simply ask if your usage of Matthew 7:25 also assumed the interchangeable usage of heaven and the kingdom of heaven in the OP.

    Apparently, you avoid the interchangeable usage per your clarification. But it was not initially obvious to this reader at first.
  7. R
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    23 Nov '16 14:082 edits
    Originally posted by Eladar
    When Jesus said that not all who call to Jesus lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, was Jesus just being a liar?


    Let's compare the relevant passages:

    First Romans 10:8-12

    But the righteousness which is out of faith speaks in this way, "Who will ascend into heaven?" that is, to bring Christ down. (v.6)

    Or, "Who will descend into the abyss?" that is, to bring Christ up from the dead. (v.7)


    Just taking this much, the Bible is saying that eternal salvation is not in what you and I can do. It rests in Christ Who came down from heaven by way of incarnation and rose from the dead in resurrection.

    We could not bring Him down. And we could not raise Him from the dead.
    And we certainly could not force Him to die for our sins.
    The WORK of saving us was out of Him.

    Then Paul goes on about faith in Him and His finished work which saves us.

    But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart," that is the word of faith which we proclaim, (v.8)

    That is you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; (v.9)

    For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation. (v.10)


    This passage is about being eternally saved, eternally redeemed through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is the belief in the heart and the confession of the mouth in the Christ Who is Son of God Who came down from heaven, died a redemptive death and rose in a victorious resurrection.

    The work is His to save us forever.
    We believe with the heart and confess Him as "Lord" with the mouth, and we will be saved.

    Now the passage of Matthew 7:21 is about entering into the kingdom of the heavens. This calls for living the highest level of righteousness by the grace of Christ. In other words just being forgiven is not all of God's purpose. He also has a government, a kingdom, a realm of authority that those saved are called to live in. And just calling on the Lord for eternal redemption alone may not qualify one to enter into that kingdom of the heavens.

    " Not every one who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who does the will of My Father who is in the heavens. (v.21)

    Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, was it not in Your name that we prophesied, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name did many works of power? (v.22)

    And then I will declare to them: I never knew
    [or acknowledged] you. Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness."


    Christ can save men eternally for believing in His finished work and calling on His name.
    Christ can also temporarily exclude men from His kingdom because though they have been saved forever, He did not acknowledge their methods of serving Him, falling short of living out the will of His Father.

    The word for "knew" in the phrase "I never knew you" is the same word used by Paul in Romans 7 where he says what he does he does not acknowledge.

    "For what i work out, I do not acknowledge." (Rom. 7:15a)


    He did not approve or agree with what he did.
    And Jesus will tell some who are eternally redeemed, when the millennial kingdom come, that He did not approve or acknowledge or agree with their methods of work as Christian workers.

    They will be punished temporarily as saved yet "workers of lawlessness".

    How can it be justified that this punishment could be temporary and not eternal punishment?

    Read the next post to see.
  8. R
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    23 Nov '16 14:331 edit
    Matthew 7:25 does not teach - DON'T call on the Lord Jesus.

    Matthew 7:25 teaches that to enter the kingdom of the heavens JUST calling and not living the Father's will may not be enough.

    Matthew 7:25 does not teach - Do not call on the Lord to be saved from eternal punishment.
    It teaches that God's purpose is not JUST that we be saved from eternal punishment.

    Romans 10:7-10 does not teach that ALL God wants is for men to believe and call 'Lord Jesus". It just teaches that to believe and call "Lord Jesus" will cause God to be faithful to see that you are eternally saved.

    Romans 10:7-13 (going down two more verses) does not teach that calling Lord Jesus is ONLY good for being eternally saved. It is good for enjoying the riches of Christ even every day after that first day too.

    "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all and rich to all who call upon Him;

    For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (vs.12,13)


    Christ is not just "rich" to you when you call to be saved from eternal perdition. He is "rich" to be saved from many things which trouble us - lust, anger, jealousy, envy, anxiety, disobedience, cold heartedness, backsliddeness, bad habits, etc. etc.

    The teaching does not say call on Jesus only ONCE.
    The teaching does not say - never call anymore after you are redeemed for eternal life.

    The Matthew 7 passage neither teaches against calling "Lord, Lord".
    It teaches against not also living through the riches of Christ for a high level of morality.
  9. R
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    23 Nov '16 14:342 edits
    How can it be said that the being told by the Lord there to depart from Him is temporary ?

    The eternal age does not begin right after the second coming of Christ when He will judge His saints. It comes 1,000 years after. So Christ can discipline, punish, correct under developed disciples for their bad methods of serving Him, excluding them from the 1,000 year manifestation of "the kingdom of the heavens".

    Here we see different degrees of reward pertaining to that time:

    " Therefore whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of the heavens; but he whoever practices and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens." (Matt. 5:19)


    And here we see different degrees of discipline or punishment pertaining to that time:

    " And that slave who knew his master's will and did not practice or do according to his will, will receive many lashes;

    But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes."
    (Luke 12:47,48)


    Concerning those for whom eternal redemption and eternal life are settled in the affirmative, there will still be, during the preliminary thousand year kingdom of the heavens -

    1.) Different levels of honor

    2.) Different levels of discipline
  10. Joined
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    23 Nov '16 15:16
    Originally posted by sonship
    The OP mentions [b]heaven and the kingdom of heaven in an interchangeable way:

    Everyone is going to heaven, at least according to some libtards.

    For those who actually believe this lie I ask....

    When Jesus said that not all who call to Jesus lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, was Jesus just being a liar?


    My questi ...[text shortened]... angeable usage per your clarification. But it was not initially obvious to this reader at first.[/b]
    C'mon jaywill. My response was obviously addressing the question posed in the OP about if Jesus was a liar when He said, "not all who call to Jesus lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven."

    For you to have written, "When you say 'Of course not' you are referring to what was written about entering into heaven." was illogical as I painstakingly detailed in my previous post. Why can't you simply admit it?

    Apparently, you avoid the interchangeable usage per your clarification. But it was not initially obvious to this reader at first.

    You know how more than a few people have remarked on your poor reading skills over the years? There you go.
  11. Joined
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    23 Nov '16 15:321 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    [b]Matthew 7:25 does not teach - DON'T call on the Lord Jesus.

    Matthew 7:25 teaches that to enter the kingdom of the heavens JUST calling and not living the Father's will may not be enough.

    Matthew 7:25 does not teach - Do not call on the Lord to be saved from eternal punishment.
    It teaches that God's purpose is not JUST that we be ...[text shortened]... .
    It teaches against not also living through the riches of Christ for a high level of morality.[/b]
    In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus makes it clear that the only ones that will enter the kingdom of heaven are those that do the will of the Father. To those who continue to do evil, i.e., commit sin, He will tell them that He never knew them and to get away from Him.

    Matthew 7
    21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


    It's really simple jaywill. Unlike the contorted nonsense you've posted in order to deny what Jesus clearly stated.
  12. R
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    23 Nov '16 20:22
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    For you to have written, "When you say 'Of course not' you are referring to what was written about entering into heaven." was illogical as I painstakingly detailed in my previous post. Why can't you simply admit it?


    You clarified what you meant.
    You did not demonstrate that it was illogical to understand that like the OP you were using heaven and kingdom of heaven as synonymous.

    You did not convince me that my question to you was not logical.
    And I think I'll move on from this point.


    You know how more than a few people have remarked on your poor reading skills over the years? There you go.


    C'mon ThinkOfOne. Do you really have to reach back and dig up old criticisms about my reading skills to get some more mileage out of it?

    I think your Ezekiel challenge is more interesting and worthy of some time to examine. Its a better point, if you want to debate.
  13. Joined
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    24 Nov '16 01:19
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    What translation are you using please?
    Take your pick.
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    24 Nov '16 01:222 edits
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    He's using the NWT, what else?
    Did you know that the King James Bible was originally dedicated to King James because he paid the translators?

    Our NWT is dedicated to Jehovah God, Our Creator, and nobody was paid for the
    translation.
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    24 Nov '16 02:08
    Originally posted by roigam
    Our NWT is dedicated to Jehovah God, Our Creator, and nobody was paid for the
    translation.
    Whether anyone was paid to do the work is a red herring, roigam. Was the NWT translation commissioned, translated and published by the JW organization? In so far as it differs from other translations, are these differences in any way related to points of difference between JW doctrine and mainstream Christian doctrine and the Bibles used by those Christians?
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