Jews and atheism

Originally posted by jaywill
Atheists often love to run and hide behind the Messiah unbelieving Jewish Theist. Since the motive of the Atheist is to be anti - Christ, they often go to seek assistance from the people who have put in the most time and energy to reject the New Testament, the typical theistic Jew.

Now watch this. After reading this, the next step will be to accuse me of ime than anyone else."

I expect now accusations of Anti Semitism from the Atheists.

"1.) Oppose the existence of God."

Do Atheists really oppose the existance of God? Or are they just agnostic about it because to them the existence of God has not been proven sufficiently? Skepticism is not the same as opposition.

And this is my main problem with many Christians. They setup this false dichotomy of: either you are with us or against us.

Originally posted by Ullr
"1.) Oppose the existence of God."

Do Atheists really oppose the existance of God? Or are they just agnostic about it because to them the existence of God has not been proven sufficiently? Skepticism is not the same as opposition.

And this is my main problem with many Christians. They setup this false dichotomy of: either you are with us or against us.

yes some oppose it, they think its dangerous, irrational and immoral!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes some oppose it, they think its dangerous, irrational and immoral!

You got a point. I think some Atheists do look down upon Theists as being stupid and irrational for what they believe and the attitude can be condescending.

Originally posted by jaywill
Atheists often love to run and hide behind the Messiah unbelieving Jewish Theist. Since the motive of the Atheist is to be anti - Christ, they often go to seek assistance from the people who have put in the most time and energy to reject the New Testament, the typical theistic Jew.

Now watch this. After reading this, the next step will be to accuse me of ...[text shortened]... ime than anyone else."

I expect now accusations of Anti Semitism from the Atheists.

I think everyone on this forum should consider what you say here, to help them understand the intensity of your beliefs.

Originally posted by jaywill
When the Atheist uses the Theist Jew to push him in front of his anti-Christ arguments, it almost seems like the Atheist has temporarily become a Theist. But he is only interested in the Christ contrarian arguments of Judaism.

Since the resurrection of Christ Judaism has been largely structured around a denial of Jesus as the Jewish Messiah.

They ...[text shortened]... like you wouldn't believe.

I went through this for years on The Creation Evolution Forum.

Since the resurrection of Christ Judaism has been largely structured around a denial of Jesus as the Jewish Messiah.

This is patently inaccurate. Judaism is structured around the dual Torah (written and oral-ongoing). As you might recall, I spent some years in intensive study of Judaism after being told of my Jewish ancestry by my paternal grandmother shortly before she died. However, if your main exposure is in Jewish-Christian debate (or even just interfaith dialogue), then of course the differing understandings of messiah are likely to be central to those discussions. Well, of course, from a Christian perspective, that may honestly seem to be the main difference between the two religions—but there are really deeper paradigmatic differences, based on hermeneutics and exegesis (relating to the polysemous character of classical Hebrew, which lends itself to a generally more open hermeneutic in Judaism—such as midrash), etc. Since I publicly explored a lot of that in these threads, I really don’t want to revisit it in detail (some may have been before your time, but you were here for some of it—Freaky and lucifershammer and I had some good discussions on the subject, especially when I tried my own hand at midrash); nor am I interested in any further debate on it, no matter how friendly. Suffice it to say that Jews do not have a singular, doctrinally held concept of messiah that is central to the faith. (There is also a very strong nondualist stream in Jewish theology that interests me because I am a nondualist; but that is another matter.)

In my experience (which is, of course, also limited—being just my experience), as well as extensive reading, most Jewish commentary on Jesus is either (1) exploring the historical figure as a Galilean Jew (and proto-rabbi), or (2) responsa to claims/questions about messiah from Christians. Most Jewish writings that I have read do not talk about Jesus at all (and, to repeat, there are differing concepts of messiah in Judaism, and there is no “orthodoxy” on the subject).

I am not fault-finding as I think you arrived at a misunderstanding honestly; I only point out that the above statement is in error.

_________________________________________

EDIT: You and I have had discussions about exegesis of the Hebrew scriptures before, and I have never thought you to be anti-semitic.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I think a more interesting question is why have so many chess world champions been
Jewish, the number is quite disproportionate i think.

They have an ancient tradition of studying from books.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes some oppose it, they think its dangerous, irrational and immoral!

Try again, atheists do not 'oppose the existence of god' they oppose the proposal that god exists based on nothing more than wishful thinking and hearsay, ergo an irrational belief. As for dangerous and immoral, Google the Crusades, and 9/11.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
They have an ancient tradition of studying from books.

And extending that through endless bifurcating trees of “what if…” through oral engagement.

______________________________________________


Western thought works by thesis, antithesis, synthesis.

Judaism goes thesis, antithesis, antithesis, antithesis....


—the Rabbi in Joann Sfar’s The Rabbi’s Cat.

Originally posted by jaywill
Atheists often love to run and hide behind the Messiah unbelieving Jewish Theist...

your thesis is faulty. i haven't seen any atheists here hiding behind jews.

Originally posted by kevcvs57
Try again, atheists do not 'oppose the existence of god' they oppose the proposal that god exists based on nothing more than wishful thinking and hearsay, ergo an irrational belief. As for dangerous and immoral, Google the Crusades, and 9/11.

Personally, I have a combination of views:

1. I am a strong atheist with regard to theistic concepts that are incoherent or lead to logical contradictions.

2. I am a weak atheist otherwise.

3. I am a nondualist, and historically nondualists (e.g., the Stoics) have used the word theos in alternative ways going back millennia (also, say, the Taoists), so that dualistic usages (such as we generally find on here) do not necessarily have intellectual primacy—they are just more conventional.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
They have an ancient tradition of studying from books.

but that still doesn't account for the disproportionate amount of chess world champions
who were Jewish, many chess players are very studious.

Originally posted by kevcvs57
Try again, atheists do not 'oppose the existence of god' they oppose the proposal that god exists based on nothing more than wishful thinking and hearsay, ergo an irrational belief. As for dangerous and immoral, Google the Crusades, and 9/11.

no you try again, as the video stated there is plenty of evidence which infers the
existence of God, this is neither heresy nor wishful thinking, that it doesn't prove
empirically the existence of God is neither here nor there for as the video also stated
many atheists hypocritically deny the existence of God yet are willing to give
credence to other unobserved phenomena, thus their position must logically stem from
one of opposition, otherwise how are we to account for this contradiction? the crusades and
9/11 have nothing to do with my assertions that many atheists find belief in a deity
both immoral and irrational. Is there no end to this production line of fallacies?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
but that still doesn't account for the disproportionate amount of chess world champions
who were Jewish, many chess players are very studious.

could be a cultural thing. where i live a disproportionate amount of toffs play cricket.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
could be a cultural thing. where i live a disproportionate amount of toffs play cricket.

hmmm, are they all great cricketers though, i dont think its a numbers game.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no you try again, as the video stated there is plenty of evidence which infers the
existence of God, this is neither heresy nor wishful thinking, that it doesn't prove
empirically the existence of God is neither here nor there for as the video also stated
many atheists hypocritically deny the existence of God yet are willing to give
credence ...[text shortened]... n a deity
both immoral and irrational. Is there no end to this production line of fallacies?

Usual irrelevant BS from you then Robbie.