1. SubscriberFMF
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    21 Apr '17 13:241 edit
    Why do some Christians interpret John 17:15-16 to mean that followers of Christ should have nothing to do with politics and other Christians don't?

    Is the Bible unclear on this issue?

    Here it is: “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
  2. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Apr '17 14:56
    Originally posted by FMF
    Why do some Christians interpret John 17:15-16 to mean that followers of Christ should have nothing to do with politics and other Christians don't?

    Is the Bible unclear on this issue?

    Here it is: [b] “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given the ...[text shortened]... sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
    [/b]
    Judging from the context I would day that Jesus was speaking specfically to his disciples at the time. There are followers of Christ in all walks of life who will be in the Kingdom of God. Some Christians rather stay out of politics and that is their prerogative, but to claim that it is required of all Christians is not correct. One Roman soldier was described by the Apostles as devout. God will judge and for people to make these rules and requirements which are unbiblical is just more evidence how far Christianity has strayed from what the Bible says.
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    21 Apr '17 15:17
    Originally posted by FMF
    Why do some Christians interpret John 17:15-16 to mean that followers of Christ should have nothing to do with politics and other Christians don't?

    Is the Bible unclear on this issue?

    Here it is: [b] “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given the ...[text shortened]... sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
    [/b]
    This could be applied to almost anything secular in the Christians life:

    TV
    Sport
    Music
    Entertainment
    Travel
    Cinema
    Alcohol
    Employment
    Education
    Politics

    In fact many of these are taken to extreme perspectives by some religious groups.
  4. SubscriberSuzianne
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    21 Apr '17 20:091 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Judging from the context I would day that Jesus was speaking specfically to his disciples at the time. There are followers of Christ in all walks of life who will be in the Kingdom of God. Some Christians rather stay out of politics and that is their prerogative, but to claim that it is required of all Christians is not correct. One Roman soldier was descr ...[text shortened]... are unbiblical is just more evidence how far Christianity has strayed from what the Bible says.
    Clearly, the copy/pasted verses are a portion of a prayer (all of John 17 is this prayer) to His Heavenly Father. How you can think he must have been speaking to humans is beyond me.

    My take on it is the whole "not of this world" thing is slightly overblown. We're here to help our brothers, and I mean that in a "human" sense, not necessarily a "Christian" sense. We should not take these verses as a reason to stand back and not help those we can help, just because we think we are "not of this world" and so should remain above the fracas of everyday life. Life is lived most urgently in the "everyday" and for Christians to just blow this off and not help people because they should strive to be "not of this world" makes no sense to me.

    Politics has been overrun with greed, especially in America, but that doesn't mean that we cannot use the political system to make things better for our fellow man. We DO need to strive to be "not of this world" when it comes to the greed therein.
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    21 Apr '17 20:16
    What does the bible say? This divinely inspired work, created by an all-powerful and all-knowing god, says what now? Besides the three main divisions, there are hundreds or thousands of christian sects. You people don't know what you are talking about.
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    21 Apr '17 20:173 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    Why do some Christians interpret John 17:15-16 to mean that followers of Christ should have nothing to do with politics and other Christians don't?

    Is the Bible unclear on this issue?

    Here it is: [b] “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given the ...[text shortened]... sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
    [/b]
    Why do some Christians interpret John 17:15-16 to mean that followers of Christ should have nothing to do with politics and other Christians don't?

    The Bible is what it is. The Bible is widely open to interpretation and contains inconsistencies, discrepancies and outright contradictions.

    People often impress their own preconceived biases and beliefs upon a passage. This is easy to do when the passage is taken out of context and is abstract rather than concrete.

    It's a way for them to make God in their own image. What's disturbing is that they delude themselves into believing that they are "servants" of God when the reality is that they "serve" themselves.
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    21 Apr '17 21:451 edit
    How are those who have proffered their own windy opinions going to reconcile their absurd claims with the historical facts?

    In The Early Church, historian Henry Chadwick says that the early Christian congregation was known for its “indifference to the possession of power in this world.” It was a “non-political, quietist, and pacifist community.”

    A History of Christianity says: “There was a conviction widely held among Christians that none of their number should hold office under the state . . . As late as the beginning of the third century Hippolytus said that historic Christian custom required a civic magistrate to resign his office as a condition of joining the Church.”

    “Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. . . . They would not hold political office.”—On the Road to Civilization, A World History (Philadelphia, 1937), A. Heckel and J. Sigman, pp. 237, 238.

    “The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, as a priestly and spiritual race, and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state.”—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168.

    They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defense of the empire. Some indulgence might, perhaps, be allowed to those persons who, before their conversion, were already engaged in such violent and sanguinary occupations; but it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes. -

    http://faculty.history.wisc.edu/sommerville/123/Gibbon.htm

    That being that Christians were a non political pacifist group that did not serve in public office, did not serve in the army and had a kingdom and leader that was 'no part of this world'?
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    21 Apr '17 21:492 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    [b]Why do some Christians interpret John 17:15-16 to mean that followers of Christ should have nothing to do with politics and other Christians don't?

    The Bible is what it is. The Bible is widely open to interpretation and contains inconsistencies, discrepancies and outright contradictions.

    People often impress their own preconceived biases an ...[text shortened]... into believing that they are "servants" of God when the reality is that they "serve" themselves.[/b]
    What a steaming pile of self righteous, Pharisaical, judgemental, holier than though, straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel your text is. Answer the question you impuissant Wendy and stop prancing about drinking shandy! Were Christians to take part in politics or not.
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    21 Apr '17 23:15
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    What a steaming pile of self righteous, Pharisaical, judgemental, holier than though, straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel your text is. Answer the question you impuissant Wendy and stop prancing about drinking shandy! Were Christians to take part in politics or not.
    What a steaming pile of self righteous, Pharisaical, judgemental, holier than though, straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel your text is.

    This seems an apt description of your very sentence.

    Answer the question you impuissant Wendy and stop prancing about drinking shandy! Were Christians to take part in politics or not

    My response did address FMF's question which was as follows:
    "Why do some Christians interpret John 17:15-16 to mean that followers of Christ should have nothing to do with politics and other Christians don't?"

    Why is it that your fellow JW brothers like roigam and G75 don't reel you in when you embarrass yourself with posts like this? I understand that it'd be a full-time job, but still.
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    22 Apr '17 09:401 edit
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    [b]What a steaming pile of self righteous, Pharisaical, judgemental, holier than though, straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel your text is.

    This seems an apt description of your very sentence.

    Answer the question you impuissant Wendy and stop prancing about drinking shandy! Were Christians to take part in politics or not

    M ...[text shortened]... u embarrass yourself with posts like this? I understand that it'd be a full-time job, but still.[/b]
    Gee I did not know you blushed so easily. If I was a self righteous holier than though type I would be more embarrassed with that than someone who calls you out for it. 😵
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    22 Apr '17 09:411 edit
    I see none of those who proffered their opinions dare to contest the historical record. Oh well. Clearly they think more of their opinions than they do of the facts.
  12. SubscriberFMF
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    22 Apr '17 09:501 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I see none of those who proffered their opinions dare to contest the historical record. Oh well.
    What about the actual text of John 17:13-20 though? I don't see why C21st Christians are necessarily obliged to emulate or mimic 'Early Christians' (or Christians during any other centuries for that matter). Without seeking to piggyback on what Early Christians' line of thinking just so happened to be, can you dissect the actual scripture itself and demonstrate why you think C21st Christians who are active in politics have drawn the wrong lesson from John 17:13-20?
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    22 Apr '17 10:163 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    What about the actual text of John 17:13-20 though? I don't see why C21st Christians are necessarily obliged to emulate or mimic 'Early Christians' (or Christians during any other centuries for that matter). Without seeking to piggyback on what Early Christians' line of thinking just so happened to be, can you dissect the actual scripture itself and demonstrate ...[text shortened]... hink C21st Christians who are active in politics have drawn the wrong lesson from John 17:13-20?
    You don't think that Christians were meant to follow the example of the Christ and the apostles? Actually the scriptures say otherwise,

    I set the pattern for you, that, just as I did to you, you should do also. - John 13:15
    Become imitators of me, just as I am of Christ. - 1st Corinthians 11:1

    and simply because you don't see why 21 century Christians are meant or not meant to emulate early Christians does not even attempt to come to terms with the fact that the latter did not hold public office, join the army or have anything to do with politics.

    Until you can answer the question why they were non political and refrained from holding public office or join the army no amount of 'what I think or what I don't think', is going to do you much good. I say they did because their leader was non political, refused to become embroiled in politics (his Kingdom being no part of this world) and they were counselled likewise to be 'no part of the world', which naturally would mean, no part of the political establishment. If you can proffer any other reason why they refrained from holding public office, joining the army then please do so, otherwise what you think or do not think is not that relevant, sorry.
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    22 Apr '17 10:16
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Gee I did not know you blushed so easily. If I was a self righteous holier than though type I would be more embarrassed with that than someone who calls you out for it. 😵
    Why is it that your fellow JW brothers like roigam and G75 don't reel you in when you embarrass yourself with posts like this? I understand that it'd be a full-time job, but still.
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    22 Apr '17 10:17
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Why is it that your fellow JW brothers like roigam and G75 don't reel you in when you embarrass yourself with posts like this? I understand that it'd be a full-time job, but still.
    Its a dirty job but someone has to do it. 😵
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